1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Motors My Celica GT-Four Build Thread! - Updated 15/08/19

Discussion in 'General' started by Unicorn, 6 Sep 2011.

  1. Unicorn

    Unicorn Uniform November India

    Joined:
    25 Jul 2006
    Posts:
    12,720
    Likes Received:
    446
    For reference, the 471.4 awhp in that video was produced with as near as makes no difference 600 at the flywheel. So yes, you "lose" quite a lot on the GT-Four through the drivetrain.

    It's a pity he recorded it on what may well have been a calculator X)
     
    Last edited: 9 Sep 2011
  2. Unicorn

    Unicorn Uniform November India

    Joined:
    25 Jul 2006
    Posts:
    12,720
    Likes Received:
    446
    New question guys (and girls?).

    The seller of the engine that I was thinking of buying has emailled me and said the following:

    So basically he's offering me the head (Previously listed for £100 starting) the block (previously listed for £40 starting), sump, covers etc for a fixed price that he wants me to suggest. Thoughts? There's £100 freight on this, to get it from England over here. What do you think? Should I offer him something like £100 for the lot (total £200 delivered which tbh I think is the height of what a cracked cylinder is worth) or just stay away from it?
     
  3. mvagusta

    mvagusta Did a skid that went for two weeks.

    Joined:
    24 Dec 2006
    Posts:
    4,639
    Likes Received:
    523
    This isn't the same guy you got the cracked block from is it?
    Even if it isn't... I dunno.... do you feel lucky?

    You don't have any scrapyards around you to score an old engine from?
     
  4. Unicorn

    Unicorn Uniform November India

    Joined:
    25 Jul 2006
    Posts:
    12,720
    Likes Received:
    446
    No I think you misunderstood the original post of the thread MV, I never actually bought a block - I was only asking about the cost of having it sleeved if I did buy it. This is the same engine I'm talking about. I'm thinking I could get the head and anything that works from this engine for cheap since he's obviously having trouble selling it. There are scrapyards here (well, one actually) but they don't have Gen 6 Celicas very often. I've asked them to look out for a 3SGTE for me before but nothing ever came up.

    I don't necessarily feel lucky - this is the block with number two cylinder cracked, I was just thinking of the rest of the stuff that's available with it now... It might be worth making him an offer for everything. And the short bock could be a new coffee table for my workshop...
     
  5. Krikkit

    Krikkit All glory to the hypnotoad! Super Moderator

    Joined:
    21 Jan 2003
    Posts:
    23,453
    Likes Received:
    368
    Sounds like an alright price if the rest of the gear is decent - you could get your eye in recutting a few valves and skimming, polishing/porting a head etc with it, and a nice coffee table...
     
  6. Unicorn

    Unicorn Uniform November India

    Joined:
    25 Jul 2006
    Posts:
    12,720
    Likes Received:
    446
    That's what I was thinking, I could have the whole head prepped for the block and it'd just be a bolt on job when I get a block worth more than using as a coffee table :p
     
  7. Unicorn

    Unicorn Uniform November India

    Joined:
    25 Jul 2006
    Posts:
    12,720
    Likes Received:
    446
    Update: Had contacted the seller again to offer a (generous) £150 for the whole engine, with pallet delivery on top of that. He messaged me back saying I could have the whole thing for £230 delivered (which is good because it's £100 for the pallet delivery) but then got another message 10 minutes latter saying that was £230 for the block and sump only, because the head had been sold elsewhere.

    But all of this is irrelevant because I went and got some second, third and fourth opinions from 1) Dad, 2) Some 3SGTE experts at 6gc.net and 3) A local mechanic who once upon a time owned a tuned ST205, and they all advised me to avoid this block like the plague, no matter how cheap I was getting it. So that's now totallly put to bed and I am going to stay on the lookout for another place to buy an engine. I may contact the local breakers yard again and ask them to keep an eye open for me.
     
  8. mvagusta

    mvagusta Did a skid that went for two weeks.

    Joined:
    24 Dec 2006
    Posts:
    4,639
    Likes Received:
    523
    What about importing a GT Celica and do a ground up rebuild?
    You could score one with lots of go fast bits on it already, saving you lots of cash.
     
  9. Unicorn

    Unicorn Uniform November India

    Joined:
    25 Jul 2006
    Posts:
    12,720
    Likes Received:
    446
    When you say import a GT, do you mean one of these?



    A GT ST202? If so, the reason I don't really want one of those is the fwd drivetrain and the 3S-GE engine. Neitehr are what I'm looking for. I also don't necessarily want to save money to end up with something that was done someone elses way, I want to build it my way with the parts that I choose. Don't get me wrong, the 202 was a really nice model, and with enough work you can get a front wheel drive version of the ST205, but there's not much point when I want an AWD Celica that has a 3SGTE engine.
     
    Last edited: 15 Sep 2011
  10. mvagusta

    mvagusta Did a skid that went for two weeks.

    Joined:
    24 Dec 2006
    Posts:
    4,639
    Likes Received:
    523
    My bad, I meant a GT four Celica!

    I know what you mean though, it's nice to get your hands on a virgin car, and be the first one to open her up, get to work, make her purr, scream and move like she never has before... those Celica's do have some nice curves on them, check out those rear quarter panels... I wouldn't mind some time alone in the garage with one of them either :naughty:
     
  11. Unicorn

    Unicorn Uniform November India

    Joined:
    25 Jul 2006
    Posts:
    12,720
    Likes Received:
    446
    Ah, gotcha! :thumb: Easy mistake to make - yeah I couldn't be bothered doing an actual conversion swap (3S-GE to 3S-GTE). Instead what will probably and hopefully happen is a straight swap, a stock 3S-GTE replaced with my tuned and rebuilt 3S-GTE. That's the plan anyway, we'll see what happens in the end. What I do know is that in the current design, there are about 2x A4 pages of performance mods that I want to do on the car, compared to about half a page of aesthetic mods. That should give you an idea of the amount of work that I intend on doing to everything that lots of people will never see, but I will feel every time I drive it ;)

    You're right about the curves... I think it's a really timeless design. Some people think they're ugly, some people think they're ok but dated because they were designed in the early-mid 90's... personally I love the body shape. I think it's one of the best looking cars of the 90's that still looks great today. There is not one other car that I want to own or work on as a project until I get my hands on a GT-Four :)
     
    Last edited: 16 Sep 2011
  12. mvagusta

    mvagusta Did a skid that went for two weeks.

    Joined:
    24 Dec 2006
    Posts:
    4,639
    Likes Received:
    523
    Yeah, they are an awesome shape. Like most cars, I think they look better with no rear spoiler, just have side skirts and hood venting - the factory ones are very nice.

    Are you going to strip it back and seam weld the body? No need for a heavy rollcage, unless you're going to race it.
    Got some diet plans for it? If you whack a carbon hood on, make sure it's paint matches the car!
     
  13. Unicorn

    Unicorn Uniform November India

    Joined:
    25 Jul 2006
    Posts:
    12,720
    Likes Received:
    446
    Weight reduction, more build plans and... Gearbox fears

    I will put it on a diet, but at the moment I don't plan on having CF pattern on it - so basically yes, I will make sure that it's painted over. Lots of people don't it when you do that, but if and when I use CF on it, it'll be for lightweight and strength purposes, nothing else. The colour is not 100% confirmed yet, but it will be dark. I've been looking at paint samples recently and have picked out a few possibilities.

    I do plan on seam welding the whole body - if not personally then I'll have someone do it for me. That will be done at the same time as all the rest of the body work. Basically I want to start with the shell and build it from the ground up. It's going to be a restoration/performance build hybrid project. Before anyone comments on the massive task that this is going to be, I know it's going to take months and months of man hours to complete it, but I've wanted this to happen since before I learned to drive, and I don't mind taking my sweet time over it to have the (realistic) car of my dreams and have built it myself. I have recently learned that life is too short to keep planning on doing something, sometimes you have to just get on with it and pursue the things that you know will make you happy :thumb:

    I'll go with an unobtrusive roll cage because I do want to trackday race it, but as far as the diet goes all I want is the "stage one" weight reduction measures which basically entails lightweight body panels where possible, rear seats removed (pointless much? :hehe:), lightweight firewall material, lightweight clutch & flywheel, lightweight gearbox kit etc. Not completely stripped out like a rally car, but not the bog standard road-going fatty that it normally is either. A set of lightweight racing seats would be nice too, but looking through pictures on 6gc.net I can't decide if I like the look of racing seats in place of the standard ones recovered or not. I suppose if I want to take it to the track I'll have to have them and 4 point harnesses as well.

    At the moment the one thing that really concerns me about the whole project is the gearbox. I know the following about any decent ST205 that I will buy:

    - The engine is good for all the horsepower that I will ever want or need with the rebuild.
    - The 4wd system in the GT4 can handle all that power with just a couple of upgrades. Mainly the final driveshafts and the addition of a LSD.
    - The suspension and brakes can be upgraded with reasonable ease from a selection of performance parts.
    - With the exception of the paint colour, I know exactly how I want the car to look.

    The one aspect of the whole project that I don't know what I am going to do about is the gearbox. I have been told many times that the stock box is just not good enough to handle the sort of power that a tuned and forged built 3SGTE can put out for very long. People have gotten a few thousand miles out of one box and commented that it "wasn't bad" becuse the "last one didn't last that long". So basically with these cars, if you are building it for weekend driveability and trackday fun, you need to have a custom gearbox built for it. And that could well be the most expensive and difficult part of the build, besides the engine. The last time I heard of a performance gearbox being custom built for competition use, it was my Dads cousin who had a sequential box built for his 1600 Suzuki Swift powered Toyota Starlet rally car a couple of years ago. That was a short ratio box with straight cut gears and a sequential shifter. It cost him £3K. His comment on it just after it was put in the car was "we gained about 2 or 3 tenths of a second per shift off the line, and about 2 tenths per shift through each stage, so it was worth every penny".

    All well and good, but seriously. Three grand for a gearbox. Yikes! :eeek:

    This thread has kinda turned into me hashing out all the ideas and plans for the project. I hope that's ok! :)
     
    Last edited: 17 Sep 2011
  14. mvagusta

    mvagusta Did a skid that went for two weeks.

    Joined:
    24 Dec 2006
    Posts:
    4,639
    Likes Received:
    523
    Straight cut gears sound cool, and are tough :rock:
    If you don't go too big on the clutch, and if you don't dump the power on, you reduce drive line weight, and reduce wear on the gearbox.
    Dumping heaps of power on is good for drifting, but not racing or the driveline.
    How much money are you going to end up spending on this car? Is there going to be carbon suspension and driveline components as well? :jawdrop:

    How about replacing the back seat with two lightweight fibreglass seats?
    I would make sure the driver's seat is comfy at least, you don't want it to feel like the car is raping you every time you drive it!
     
  15. Unicorn

    Unicorn Uniform November India

    Joined:
    25 Jul 2006
    Posts:
    12,720
    Likes Received:
    446
    That's true about feeding the power on. Most of the comments I hear about gearbox issues are from guys who drag their cars or drop the clutch a lot. Realistically I won't be doing that, but I still think I'm eventually going to have to have a box built for it :rolleyes:

    Money wise it's going to end up being expensive, I know this. I don't even want to estimate what it might cost, but I'll just direct you here and leave it at that (blurry text at the bottom of the page is relevant) originally posted here.

    No seriously though, I'm going to start it when I have enough money saved to make a good start, then keep working for it and at it after that. I'll get what I can done when I can on it, and buy what I can when I can for it. I know that I won't be starting the car this year. I also know now (read: have realised since I started this thread) that I probably won't be building the engine this year either, because I have been advised by so many people to not buy a cheap damaged engine, but instead buy a good working engine with low miles and go from there, and with a number of things still to pay off this year I will have to wait before I can afford an engine of that standard. This is the sort of project that takes years, it would take an extremely wealthy person with a lot of spare time to make this happen in less than a year, and I am neither extremely wealthy nor do I have an abundance of spare time at the moment. Take a look at GOO's build for example. That's been going on for years, but it's a labour of love and it's a truly unique, hand built car that he is (I'm sure) immensely proud of. That's what I'm aiming for as well, no matter how long it takes or how much it costs within reason :thumb:

    Carbon suspension and driveline is way OTT for what I want, and there's no point in putting it in when I don't need it, so no I won't bother with that. I'll just be replacing the stock driveshafts with lighter and stronger components - probably from Cusco - and the suspension with shorter adjustable coilovers. I'll probably end up with a couple of racing seats in it, which are nice and comfy if you get the right ones, but the back seats will probably come out and never go back in. Lightweight replacements... maybe. We'll see how much I use the car (for transporting people I mean) after it's on the road.
     
    Last edited: 17 Sep 2011
  16. Unicorn

    Unicorn Uniform November India

    Joined:
    25 Jul 2006
    Posts:
    12,720
    Likes Received:
    446
    I don't like doubling up my posts and I've done it a lot in this thread. I know it makes the forum look untidy, so I'm sorry about that! I just wanted to give this a little bump to ask about these rims. I recognize the logo on them but for the life of me I can't remember what manufacturer they are by. I'd really appreciate any help with this :thumb:

    [​IMG]

    So far I have worked out that they're not Work, Volk, Tein, Konig, Wolf, Enkei, Rota or OZ, but what are they?! Just one of those mind blank moments. I have contacted the owner of the car that they're on in this photo and asked him, but he hasn't replied yet.

    As you can see, I don't own the the image. It's property of 6gc.net and rehosted by myself for use here.
     
  17. Jumeira_Johnny

    Jumeira_Johnny 16032 - High plains drifter

    Joined:
    13 Nov 2004
    Posts:
    3,688
    Likes Received:
    112
    have you tried inverting the image and boosting the contrast? it looks like a signature of some sort.

    /unhelpful reply.
     
  18. Unicorn

    Unicorn Uniform November India

    Joined:
    25 Jul 2006
    Posts:
    12,720
    Likes Received:
    446
    I certainly did. It did help, I narrowed it down to "Elegance" but that was wrong. The guy who owns the car these rims are on replied to my PM today. They are a far eastern brand and it's actually "Elegante". Unfortunately, I can find absolutely nothing about them online. Being a far east company they are probably a product of a massive corportation and "Elegante" is probably just what they called this particular wheel at the time.

    The closest thing to them in the UK are the FOX Rs5, pictured below:

    [​IMG]

    Pretty close, but not exactly right. And unfortunately, they're very hard to find in 8x18" it seems. Anyone who can find me any info on the "Elegante" rims gets an extra large cookie. They're the ones that I really want.
     
  19. Krikkit

    Krikkit All glory to the hypnotoad! Super Moderator

    Joined:
    21 Jan 2003
    Posts:
    23,453
    Likes Received:
    368
    Just on the subject of gearboxes what I'd recommend doing is starting with the standard box - get it rebuilt with uprated bearings, new synchros etc, maybe a reinforced casing (if that's how they fail, different boxes tend to go in different ways) and work it from there. If you blow the box (or rather, if it becomes noisy and nasty) you know it needs a proper uprated jobby rather than a fresh box.

    There's a lot of talk about needing this that and t'other fancy gearboxes, often from folks who start with a gearbox that's done 80k+ miles without any maintenance.

    The £3k box is way way too fancy for a fast road build. Sequential is the bit that gives it ridiculous cost, Sadev units even for modest hatchbacks much more, than that, and are only really for proper competition use. The Sadev unit for my car (TU not BE, for you Peugeot nuts) is about £4500 + clutch and uprated driveshafts, which is biblically insane for anything but the proper Maxi works cars. Again, straight-cut gears are probably too much for your needs, I'm assuming you're not going to be running big power, so a good helical set should be man enough tbh.

    Oh, and cages, I'd look what everyone else is running for a track setup, but something that goes through the dash and firewall to tie in to the front strut tops with door bars will be the safest option. Not hard to do if you're stripping the shell and seam welding. Door bars are hard work, so you might want to think carefully about them, although some cages have bolt-in ones that you could put on for track days and off for road use.
     
    Last edited: 12 Nov 2011
  20. mvagusta

    mvagusta Did a skid that went for two weeks.

    Joined:
    24 Dec 2006
    Posts:
    4,639
    Likes Received:
    523
    Both the Rs5 and Elegante rims look nice... they are practically the same anyway, and there would be quite a few brands that make very similar 5 spoked wheels...

    What's so special about these Elegante rims?

    Have you found a decent engine to start work on yet?

    And removable roll cage bars would be a very good idea for a street car! A carbon fiber roll cage would be nice too.... steal some fancy bicycles and cut them up :D
     

Share This Page