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Motors My Celica GT-Four Build Thread! - Updated 15/08/19

Discussion in 'General' started by Unicorn, 6 Sep 2011.

  1. Unicorn

    Unicorn Uniform November India

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    Yeah the 50cc's or so that a 1mm bigger bore on each cylinder will give me probably won't make much difference at all. It may happen and it may not. The 88mm bored 2.3L 5SFE block that you put a 3SGTE head onto (custom from ATS Racing would be much closer to a square srtoke, but in my case I don't see it making that much difference. IF I can find somewhere in-country or in the ROI to have it done relatively inexpensively, then I will do it anyway for the sake of completeness, but if it had to go over to the mainland to get done I'd just forget about it. You're talking £100 at the least for a one way pallet to England from here. Then it has to come back again.

    Yes, apparently the 5SFE's are built with a forged crank. They're the prime choice among tuners and DIY engine rebuilders to stroke out the 3SGTE to 2.2L, but I think your plan is best, just grab one if I can and have it machined down to have as a spare. A "made to fit" performance crank machined from alloy steel is always going to be the better choice, even ifit does cost a little more.

    If you could find me the names of some I'd really appreciate it. My search has returned nothing so far. There are a couple of rally prep places close by here who will probably be getting a call from me at some point in the future about doing a few bits and pieces, but as far as actual engine builders go I've drawn a blank.

    The BC stroker kit looks the business all right - I can't help but feel it's cheating a little though... Just grab the whole lot in a kit and drop it in. There's something appealing about selecting your own pistons, crank and rods that just appeals to me :p In all seriousness though, the BC kit is top of my list at the moment because it's so much better value than the original kit that I'd chosen, where the JUN custom stroker kit was a hair over £2K for just the crank and a set of pistons that I wasn't going to use.

    Shipping between NI and Eire isn't bad at all, not nearly as bad as going the other way. Courrier services here used to charge us anything from £15 to £50 to send cases down on a return journey to a place near Dublin which used to do our powdercoating and laser cutting, before we started getting that done in Belfast instead. If I can get some of the work done down there I will, it's always going to work out much less expensive than going over to England with it. As I've already said, a pallet is £100 each way up to a certain weight.
     
  2. Krikkit

    Krikkit All glory to the hypnotoad! Super Moderator

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    Well I haven't turned up much relevant stuff from our club - the only concrete builder still going that is recommended directly by our guys is John Read, but he's an expert on high-revving N/A rather than big boosters.

    Having said that I did dig up this thread over at ReallyMeanSounds (NI car forum/site) which starts with
    Which descends into 3 pages. :)
     
  3. mvagusta

    mvagusta Did a skid that went for two weeks.

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    I actually meant to buy two 5SFE cranks instead of one more expensive one. You could get one 5SFE crank modded for the build, and keep the other raw 5SFE crank as a spare.

    Toyota has a very good reputation for reliability, and the 5SFE cranks have proven themselves, so I don't know if a custom made one is going to be any better?
    I would also rather lighten the flywheel than use a lighter crank btw.

    Is there much of a weight difference between the 5SFE block and the 3SGTE block?
    I'm thinking that ~600hp in a 5SGTE hybird would be more reliable and more driveable than ~600hp in a 3SGTE, plus more room to move if you ever want a bit more than 600... maybe the fact 3SGTE blocks are hard for you to get your hands on is a sign from God?
     
  4. Unicorn

    Unicorn Uniform November India

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    Ah, at first glance that looks promising. I think the guys down in Momentum Motorsport in Lisburn (first reply in that thread but I've been in touch with them before) are pretty good from what I've heard, and the last time I emailed them for an opinion they were really helpful and told me to call them any time if I had any more questions or if I needed anything done to an engine or chassis. Actually, they mentioned that they could supply a block to begin with. I might end up them up on that...

    Ah sorry, I misunderstood you about the cranks. Yes i suppose you're right, they are obviously reliable enough to handle the sort of horsepower that I'm looking for, although now that I'm leaning towards a full forged stroker kit (The BC one is better than the JUN ones, none of which are truly complete) is there much point in spending the time or money on a 5SFE crank?

    I have no idea whether there's much difference in weight or physical size between the 3SGTE and 5SFE blocks. I'll ask on 6gc and see what they say, I think some of the guys over there run "5SGTE" engines.

    The idea of a 5SGTE is really appealing, it's well proven and documented that they are capable of seriously big power. The fact that the bored stroker 5SGTE has such a square stroke means that it's incredibly reliable and has that great potential for big power, but to be honest the 3SGTE is the one that I really want. There's modifying an engine and then there's bolting the head from one engine to the block of an engine from a completely different car. As good as the 5SGTE is, I'd still rather have a high hp 3SGTE... but you never know what might happen between now and when I come to build the engine!
     
  5. mvagusta

    mvagusta Did a skid that went for two weeks.

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    I don't know what the costs are, I just assumed a single custom crank would be at least a similar cost as getting a couple of 5SFE cranks expertly prepared, but if the 5SFE option isn't that cheap, and assuming these custom cranks have proven reliability, then go custom I suppose.

    I expect the 5SFE block to be a little bit heavier, since it's generally thicker and IIRC also has chunkier main end caps. It might only be a few kilograms difference, which is worth it imo.

    Going from 87 to 88 mm bore sure helps, bit it isn't that much of an advantage.
    I'd say the main reason for the increased reliability of the 5SGTE hybrids, is due to the strength/rigidity/reduced vibration & flex, better heat dispersion, etc.
    If you weren't planning on getting much more than ~500hp out of it, I'd say stick with a 3SGTE, but you seem to want at least 600hp out of this thing before too long.

    Since you want to drive it on the track and road, and also because there aren't too many 3SGTE blocks around you, well they are more reasons to build something more reliable, and as a bonus, it's a bit bigger so it will have a bit more low end & turbo response, which you'll appreciate on the road.
    Unless you are going to be running ~600hp on occasional track days, and wind things back to under 500hp for the roads, then might as well stick with 3SGTE I guess.
     
    Last edited: 19 Nov 2011
  6. Unicorn

    Unicorn Uniform November India

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    I don't really know what the costs are either, although I'd be willing to bet that having a crank balanced and machined down to fit 3S rods would cost at least as much as the crank in the BC kit, and I'm positive that buying both a modified 5SFE block and a 3SGTE head would work out more expensive. I think with the BC kit I can hav my cake and eat it. It comes with JE pistons which you specify the diammeter of, forged H-rods and that billet steel crank that we've been discussing. I can build it myself, I only need one engine to do it and the work that needs to be done to that engine to make it fit is considerably less than what's needed to "5SGTE it". The custom cranks definitely have proven reliability, a lot of big HP 3SGTE builds that you'll find on MR2 or 6th gen discussion boards/project logs are built with JUN, HKS or BC stroker kits. JUN are too expensive, HKS discontinued theirs and BC seems to be the only one that's been well thought through and reasonably priced.

    You're right, I do want 600 out of it when all's said and done. That's pretty much my end goal now, and the reason for that is because 600bhp produces about 450-470 at the wheels, which is enough for the GT4 to run seriously fast on a track. You never know, when it comes around to it, I may end up building a 5SGTE after all, but I know that a couple of the fastest Gen6 Celicas that I've seen and heard about (Tufy's GT-Four and "Sonic") run over 600 @ the flywheel and pack 3SGTE engines. Tufy even ran his at 650 for a few months, just to prove that he could :p

    It had been my plan to have a road map and a race map for the engine. I would probably wind it back to about 450 for the streets... no need for any more power than that on public roads anyway. Most of the guys with trackday/weekend drive Celicas run them this way with a standalone ECU.

    I may not know the exact costs, but I know that it's more expensive to "5SGTE" in the long run than it is to "3SGTE". Whatever happens and whatever I decide to actually put in the thing, I need a 3SGTE - just for the head if I'm going to 5SGTE it or for the whole engine if that's what I eventually decide to run.

    It's videos like this that make me want to run the ST205's original engine with the right mods. With the right combination of Valve timing, forged internals, boost and ECU programming, this is possible from the epic 3S-GTE;



    I've already eamilled this guy to ask what exactly he's running under there. I may get a reply and I may not :p Whatever's in there has given him one serious Celica :thumb: I already know from the comments section that he's running a Garret GT35 which is the turbo of choice for the 3S, and my guess would be a powerFC or a motec ECU as well, and the "usual" 2.2 stroked out forged internals. He's on GT4oc as "SonicST205" but my membership on that site hasn't gone through yet so I'm not authorized to view the whole forum. I assume there's more info about "Sonic" on there somewhere.
     
    Last edited: 19 Nov 2011
  7. mvagusta

    mvagusta Did a skid that went for two weeks.

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    Yeah go the 3SGTE, ~450hp would be plenty for street use, and the engine will be much more responsive and longer lasting with that setup :thumb: Even if you did a track day every weekend with ~600hp, as long as she's kept in good tune, you should be fine with the 3SGTE.
    I didn't expect that the custom cranks would be as much as a modded 5SFE crank!
    This is all very interesting :geek: but I'm resisting the temptation to take things further than this thread... I'm way too busy to start a car project :worried:

    I like how the Celica looks in that blue with the custom grills :naughty: The front indicators are a bit big and too hard edged/rectangular imo, but it's still very nice.
     
  8. Krikkit

    Krikkit All glory to the hypnotoad! Super Moderator

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    Interesting stuff so far, sounds like you've settled on a plan Unicorn. :)

    Can someone tell me why that car is going on a RR without any forced cooling at all?

    Not a fan of the halfords grills, I much prefer something less shiny than that.
     
  9. Unicorn

    Unicorn Uniform November India

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    Yeah the plan is certainly starting to come together now :)

    I have no idea why there isn't a forced air source on that car. From the background noise and the blowing of the paper towel roll in the foreground, I assume there's some sort of fan blowing, but it can't be anywhere near enough. Any high HP runs that I've seen have had a massive blower or fan stuck right into or in front of the intercooler.

    I must say I don't care for the small styling details on that car either. The colour is beautiful, but mine will look a bit more menacing than that, sans "halfords grills", clear indicators etc. I'll be going for more of a track racer/ JDM hybrid look ;)
     
  10. Unicorn

    Unicorn Uniform November India

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    Feast your eyes upon this, yet another monster ST205.



    Yeah, awd wheelspin. I'd say he's running at least 480-500awhp, probably a lot more. All I know about this one is that he's using an Apexi Power FC ECU. I can't find anything about the engine specs at all, and I keep seeing "Barbaris" mentioned in several Celica videos on Youtube but I have no idea what it means. Thoughts?

    [edit]

    I can't brain today. I have the dumb. I easily found out (when I spelt it properly for Google) that Barbaris is a Greek tuning house which builds performance Toyotas. The listed Celica GT-Four Project on their site makes 753whp. From a 2.0 litre 3S-GTE. The thing's a monster! :D
     
    Last edited: 21 Nov 2011
  11. Elton

    Elton Officially a Whisky Nerd

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  12. Unicorn

    Unicorn Uniform November India

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    There really is. Their 750+whp Celica is a drag built machine. I'm pretty sure that sort of power would snap the stock Toyota drivetrain into many small pieces. I'm not aiming anywhere near that high, but it's yet another impressive demonstration of what the 3S-GTE is capable of producing with the right amount of time, money and tuning :)
     
  13. Krikkit

    Krikkit All glory to the hypnotoad! Super Moderator

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    Indeed - especially for boost cars the charge temps will suffer quite a bit, even ignoring usual cooling needs (oil & water)... I'm not sure I'd want it mapped to 610hp like that!
     
  14. Unicorn

    Unicorn Uniform November India

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    Rest assured when mine is being mapped and Dyno'd, it will have a sufficiently huge forced air source at the front :thumb: Probably a blower pointed at the FMIC, I'm told those are the most effective for mapping high boost engines.

    Now that I'm mostly settled on a viable option for the block internals, I'm looking towards the head and what I might use there. Right out of the gate I know that I'll need high lift cams and probably better valve springs to complement the high flow machining (port widening and polishing) but I don't know whether I should aim to have the valve seats ground out to accept oversize valves. It's probably something that I'm going to have to ask the engine experts on 6gc about :thumb:
     
    Last edited: 21 Nov 2011
  15. Unicorn

    Unicorn Uniform November India

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    Am I reading this right? Is a Single valve spring and retainer $242?! What is up with that?! Please someone tell me it's a badly worded product page and $242 is for the whole set... There are 16 valves in this engine!

    Clicky

    [edit]

    NVM, My mistake. Worst worded product page ever lol! Valvespring Kit.
     
    Last edited: 22 Nov 2011
  16. mvagusta

    mvagusta Did a skid that went for two weeks.

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    I bet they were too lazy to move the ramps, so the fan couldn't get close :(

    750hp from a 2 litre is a bit much! The turbo would be a big laggy thing, and imagine trying to drive that on the street :lol:
    The engine would be very high maintenance too... wow, almost sounds like I'm talking about an F40 :lol:
    The black bonet and spolier raisers hurt the looks of the last Celica imo.

    So Unicorn, post some pics of how you want your Celica to look.

    Bigger valves are always better, especially when in wide combustion chambers. Triple grinding helps flow a bit.

    By single spring, they mean one spring per valve. V8 builds often have double spring per valve setups, to be able to move the heavier pushrod valvetrains fast enough, when there is high lift and high rpm.

    Porting is a delicate thing, do lots of reasearch before you get that done. It's generally good to remove alloy from the top of the port, to straighten out the tight bend, but sometimes the benefit of increasing area and venturi effect makes it worthwhile to also grind away not just at the sides, but even at the bottom - I'd want heaps of proof such as flowbench results before I touched the bottom! You should be flowbenching and cc'ng each port anyway, to ensure consistency.
     
    Last edited: 22 Nov 2011
  17. Unicorn

    Unicorn Uniform November India

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    750 from just a 2000cc 3S-GTE is really crazy. Even at 600bhp, you are advised to change the oil and plugs every 6000 miles and check the filters more regularly than that. There's a maintenance cost to high performance ;)

    I'm not a fan of the black bonnet and riser blocks either, I love the custom bonnets with the additional vents and it wouldn't be a GT-Four without spoiler risers, but I don't think there's any way you could convince me to leave them black like that. Both my bonnet and risers will be colour coded, as will the mirrors and every other body panel :p

    I'm posting this from my phone so I can't link to or upload any pics at the moment but I'll put some stuff up this evening to give you an idea of how I'd like it to look :)

    I totally misunderstood that product page about the springs... I'm not that used to the terminology used when talking about big V8's :D

    Bigger valves seem to be a highly recommended modification when stroking the 3S out to 2.2, so that will probably happen when the rest of the head work is being done. Again, BC have some really nice looking ones at a reasonable price. The valve seats/grinding and porting is certainly where I'll have to do the really careful research. Apparently triple ground/triangle/3 angle valve jobs work very well on the 3S-GTE - that's according to several sources on 6gc.

    I have been advised to get everything tested with flow benching during the head work process, so that will definitely happen, and I don't think I'll let an engine shop work on it unless they have a flow bench in-house which will speed things up and mean that the head doesn't have to go here and there to be ported and flow tested.
     
    Last edited: 22 Nov 2011
  18. mvagusta

    mvagusta Did a skid that went for two weeks.

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    6000 miles is a good oil change period for most engines, turbo or not, because most cars aren't given a minute to warm up in the morning before driving, and most drivers don't even take it easy for the first few minutes until full temperatures are reached.

    But for a worked turbo engine... well it depends how often you're revving it basically, you'd want to change it before and after every track day, and if you took it easy on the roads, rarely revving it out, well then 6000 miles might be ok.

    I don't care how many kms have been done, if the oil is even close to black and/or becoming runny, it's time to change it. Thin oil is awesome, but when it's clean, fresh, and sticky.

    Are you tempted to get a stuffed cracked/warped/etc 3SGTE head for R&D?
    You'd have eight attempts to experiment on! Once you achieve the same flow rates as the pro tuners, you'd then be ready to port your 3SGTE to perfection. If you can get stuffed heads cheaply, it would be so worth it.
    CC'ing and milling is easy enough, you just need to make or find a flowbench.

    The other thing is you want the intake and exhaust manifolds made or modified, to suit the ideal porting of the head. Not much point having awesome head porting if it isn't matched.
     
  19. Unicorn

    Unicorn Uniform November India

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    Keeping it on the first page :thumb: (it motivates me to make progress and decisions lol)

    I am always careful about letting the engine warm up before I start driving at any sort of speed, even in my 1.5 Diesel. It's safe to say that I will treat the GT-Four like a child, so it will have a sufficient warm up time and a turbo timer to cool things down after I stop :) Some of the guys on 6gc are saying 6K mile services for a weekend/track car that's at the track only a few times per year, others are saying 5K miles for the same and the guys who run their cars at the track more often than that (be it the drag strip or at circuit trackdays) are stating that they essentially give their car a "simple service" every other time they visit the track, which in some cases is several services within a matter of weeks. I think I'll get away with 5-6K miles between oil changes, but if it turns out to need it more often, I won't refuse my engine the best treatment possible! :)

    I would love to get a blown head for R&D. That's an awesome idea! I'll be finding a company who can port and flowbench it for me, I don't have the expertise to do it myself and although I'm sure I could learn fairly quickly, I'd rather give it to a seasoned professional and make sure that I'm getting back a top quality performance head to put on my block.

    I've been looking at different intake and exhaust manifolds and can't really decide on which of either I want. I'm pretty sure I want a twin scroll (to maintain the ST205's status as a twin scroll turbocharged engine) but it's serious money and work to put a high performance twin scroll turbo on a 3S-GTE. Dual BOVs, more IC piping, more advanced manifold, more advanced twin scroll capable turbocharger etc etc... But just think of the torque and power it'll yield. It almost makes me drool with anticipation :D

    Still working on uploading a set of images to show you some of the exterior design elements of the car that I've decided on. Hopefully I'll have 10 minutes to finish writing the post and get it put up here in the morning :thumb:

    Just another teaser video, and yet another decision on performance mods to the car;



    First order of business for my gearbox will be a TRD short shifter. First order of business for me once I finish the car will be perfecting the flat shift so I can do it as smoothly as that :thumb:

    I bought a little something more for it today. More on that when it arrives ;-)
     
    Last edited: 25 Nov 2011
  20. mvagusta

    mvagusta Did a skid that went for two weeks.

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    Short shift kits are nice :D I'd prefer to mount the lever a bit closer to me than how he has it though.

    Changing the oil every second track day isn't too bad I guess, especially if there is bugger all driving in between each session. No need to change the filters more often, just replacing the majority of oil is fine, the little bit of used oil sitting within the installed filter and all the other corners is no big deal.

    Twin scroll is a very nice compromise for road and track use, but you need to settle on a budget first.
    No point drooling over uber spec parts if you don't want to spend enough to complete the package... I wonder what part you just purchased? Tell me it wasn't a TRD sticker :worried:
     

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