?? Critical thinking has gone out the window? No it hasn't, the people who have a problem with critical thinking are the creationists and subscribers to religious beliefs. Scientists (which includes both religious and anti-theist people) do not believe what they are told as fact that's why in the article above it's written “Given the controversial nature of his discovery, we have invited 100 experts and have issued a general invitation to over 5,000 scientists from the scientific community to review the paper and to offer their critical analysis,” Yup, that's a little thing called peer review. It's one of the things that makes Science the incredible tool it is. Again, you think that people who don't believe in a man in the sky who will make everything all right for them as long as the do what he says are close minded....
Creationists are probably wrong. On a similar note, evolutionsits are by all accounts wrong. Just how wrong nobody knows. However I did see a guy in Tesco with a T-Shirt on it that said 'Dawkins is God'. How ironic.
ah k- thought it was about the ai thread (that's what you get for not pointing fingers!) there is no god is not wrong or right either.. that's the point really everything seems to be tied with money (go figure)- usually follow the money and you'll find the truth- like global warming in a way I agree and I'm not pushing a jesus belief at all.. actually there's plenty in the old testament that has me question the monks that wrote it.. dinosaurs can be explained though in genesis- kayin can probably explain that if anyone is interested.. I'm done bible combing and I'm 38, have a decent understanding about what is written (sure to get a beating by a daily reader though) but the thing is, I know what's written there unlike a lot of younger people nowdays who take the athiest view without ever exploring it all.. there's islam, buddism, tao, hindu, shaman- the answer is not clear cut and dry as people would like everything to be
I think that this is the real problem. People just do not understand scientific method, they think that the "facts" are just plucked out of some theorist's head. I think this problem comes down to the fundamental science education that people recieve. All scientific teaching is focussed on the facts and not how they are obtained and validated. And that is the most important part of science. I sure as hell don't remember any of the organic chemistry reactions I learnt at A-level 3 years ago despite being enrolled in a scientific degree. the fact is, the prnciples of scientific method are simple, important and easy to comprehend, if only they were taught properly. As an example, I am currently aplying for an intercalated BSc in psychology in my medical degree. I was talking to one of the psychology professors and he lamented that the medical students he gets just do not get the basics of scientific method and critical thinking when they arrive. These are students who have achieved As in every science subject under the sun and done two years of one of the most demanding science degrees, and yet still don't have a firm grasp of the most fundamental concept in science. What hope the does the rest of the populace have. I can't believe I'm saying this, but I have to agree with thehippoz there. However, the exploring should be done with the proper tools and knowledge to do so properly (perhaps a basic understanding of science and theology). And without the indoctrination of parents.
I don't see how this disproves that God made the World in 7 days. What I see from this story is that some form of life existed on at least one other planet from our own. So what? Here's a theory... God experimented with life on other planets and those experiments may never have amounted to more than tiny tiny worms. He, God, may have destroyed those planets that didn't work out, and then created Earth (in 7 days). This experiment seems to have worked out, so far... However, getting back to the real world, yes it's exciting. Life on other planets... even if the planets are long since dead, exploded, etc.
Highly amusing. All scientific teaching is certainly not focussed on the facts. I encounter people every working day who either don't keep abreast of the scientific literature or don't want be bothered to incorporate it into their teaching. Many people teaching both undergraduate and post graduate med students refuse to acknowledge recent medical papers and suchlike. Through either pure laziness or sheer bloodymindedness. There are a lot of outdated concepts being implented on the syllabus of many scientific and medical degrees today, basically as the people configuring and teaching them don't have a clue.
Doesn't really tally with a perfect being. But then again, many parts of the Bible don't tally with that, but it's never stopped anyone believing in a perfect God.
By focus on the facts, i meant more the throwing of information at people, regardless of currency. And people aren't equipped with the knowledge of scientific method to evaluate for themselves.
As far as med students are concerned, they have enough problems with the general content and all the stuff you have to remember for exams, practicals etc etc.
Don't I know it. I know there are practical reasons. however, with the pace of medical advances and discoveries, wouldn't some of the time be better spent on the fundamentals than knowledge that will soon be forgotten or superceded.
Exactly! The general public seem to mistrust science/scientists and I think that this stems from a lack of communication between the scientific community and the general public. I really think that the scientific community need to find more ways to engage with people outside of academic circles. Maybe it could be done in schools or through the media... I think people need more education on the process of scientific endevor. Maybe then we wont get "Yeah but evolution is only a theory it's not fact"
evolution is already proven.. it's the part with the super ape and our origins and in the bible they never define the length of a day.. I know it's another whatever but I had the same questions when I was younger =]
That should be my av' sig: "Nexxo: not the usual asshole". I think that you and the atheist geeks here are really coming from the same angle: there are people who invest in their particular world view so fervently that they are closed to any alternative view. Some are religious (rather than having faith, which is not the same thing); some are 'atheists' only in that their non-belief is a religion in itself. Only the truly faithful dare question their faith. Only the true scientist tests his theories. When something appears to defy your comprehension, it is your comprehension that needs to step up to the challenge.
No, critical thinking hasn't gone out of the window. People are discussing this in the sense of 'what if it is true', don't think anyone here has taken it as a foregone conclusion that the claims made by the scientist are true. And similarly there will be plenty of people around the world who will read this news with interest but won't take it as fact on the basis of one report. But we should have believed that AI wasn't possible because you said so and you'd done so programming in the past and were pretty sure it wasn't possible? You can't have it both ways you know. To be honest it really sounds like you don't know all that many atheists. Not holding a belief in the existence of god does not make you close minded or stuck when it comes to viewing the truth. On the contrary when I've seen debates/discussions involving religious/spiritual people and atheists it is more common that the religious/spiritual individuals are less willing to consider their views and alter them when presented with evidence that contradicts what they beleive. They are also usually more likely to be swayed by anecdotal and emotional 'evidence'. Now this is only in my experience and you will obviously get religious/spiritual people who are very good at examining their beliefs and needing proper evidence before altering their views or believing something and atheists who refuse to change their views regardless and/or will believe something at the drop of a hat without the slightest shred of evidence, but overall I do think religious/spiritual people are more likely to be close minded and have less interest at getting to the truth because they've already filled in that void with the application of God. Atheist's don't make up stuff any more than any other group of people you care to lump together. You will always get people who make stuff up or think they know everything, they aren't however exclusive to one group of people. No, I think a lot of people who think they're atheist are atheist because they don't believe in teh existence of god. That's all that's required in order to be atheist. I'm fairly sure that Nexxo spent most of the previous thread pointing out how you were wrong, saying that you had little understanding of hte subject at hand and needed to go and do an awful lot of research before you'd get any where close to being able to discuss the matter properly. And now in this thread he appears to be stating that you are the sort of person who's invested so much in their world view that they are closed to any alternatives. How is that getting your logic? When you say 'atheist geeks here' are you referring specifically to posters on Bit-Tech? Because to be honest I've not seen many cases of anyone on here who claims to be an atheist refuse to alter their views when presented with a properly reasoned argument for why they're wrong. I do however agree with your point that there are people, whether they're religious or not, who are close-minded, it seems that's just part of human nature and I'd imagine it's probably not something that's going to end anytime soon.
Long and short of it is your all wrong, I'm right and the all seeing all knowing banana and peanut sandwich in the sky will unleash a holy plague of flying vampiric gerkins if you dare doubt their existence.
While I respect your opinion, and admit that you are more than entitled to hold a wrong opinion such as that, I feel at this juncture I should state clearly, and without any doubt that any viewpoint such as that is just flat out wrong in light of the quite obvious evidence that it is not a banana and peanut sandwich in the sky, but is rather a Marmite and Cheese sandwich with a cup of Bovril in the sky, with the ghostly apparition of a single slice of Boston Cheesecake. That is plainly the only monotheism one should believe in, and is supported by facts and reality, plus my pastor told me, so obviously it's true! To deny the obvious would be heresy, and should be punished with a scowl and a fierce talking-to. No exceptions.
Sometimes I do get a bit touchy, but seeing people celebrate by saying basically "where's your God now" is always going to do that, even if it's not aimed at you. The fun thing is that we're never expressly told we're it. Most people believe that we are because we're told that Jesus died for all of our sins, and if they can't know about Him because He is here and aliens are somewhere else then there shouldn't be aliens because how would they know about Him? That makes a fatal assumption, namely, that each planet also experienced a fall and therefore needs saving knowledge. This is of course an unsupported assumption, and C. S. Lewis (wonderful author) actually addressed this concept (or more properly the opposite) in the Space Trilogy, in which he talks of planets on which either the Fall did not occur (and they live in perfect harmony) or the Fall was yet to occur (and the chance happened, and yet did not occur) and that communication was only lost with Earth, the "Silent Planet" because we alone had disobeyed God. To me, it's a decent theory. It's a hell of a lot more cogent than most of the utter crap that's spewed by mostly mainline evangelists. Believe me, I do not check my brain at the door when I attend church. In fact, I tend to tune in more closely, that I both check for errors and that I apply what I hear to what I know and hopefully to my life. I hope by following Christianity to better myself (as well as that side of salvation that the atheists disbelieve, but at least we can see a benefit from following the tenets of Christianity) and by doing so to treat my fellow man better. And extraterrestrials? Would be pretty cool. I'd love to see what He came up with elsewhere. Wouldn't hurt my faith in the least.
Does the bible ever mention other planets? The sun gets a mention, the moon might, but thats about it iirc. I guess this is just another discovery that gets filed under "god did that as well", creationism answers everything!
Yes it does, but it's not exactly the most riveting of tales. Take a read of this if you want to do your head in though (came across it while searching for a good site on biblical astronomy).
