Displays NEC EA231WMi monitor ghosting

Discussion in 'Hardware' started by steve_1979, 4 Jan 2010.

  1. steve_1979

    steve_1979 What's a Dremel?

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    Hello,

    I'm interested in buying the NEC MultiSync EA231WMi 23" monitor after reading the favourable review in this months Custom PC magazine. I am concerned about the very slow 16ms response time though, in the review they said it was bearly noticable however as I intend to use it mainly for gaming would it make a big difference?

    What other good 23/24" 1080x1920 gaming monitors are available for around £200-£250?
     
    Last edited: 4 Jan 2010
  2. GoodBytes

    GoodBytes How many wifi's does it have?

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    What you asks makes no sense...
    A "good" gaming monitor, is a monitor where everything is abysimal for low input delay and response time. Any cheap ass 2ms response time with DVI will do in my opinion.

    If you want wide view angle, color accuracy, 8-bit display (instead of 6-bit), vivid natural colors (not boosting the saturation like no tomorrow) with a matte screen. Then these are high-end monitors and have input lag, and lower response time for the name of image quality, color accuracy, and panel technology.

    You must remember that response time above 16ms is not visible depending on the panel technology. See TN panels (what "gamers" love due to their ultra low response time (see first parg), are 6-bit panel, and to make up for the missing colors, it uses a technology where 2 colors close to teh color that needs to be produced flash really fast in the vein hope to trick your eyes... having this everywhere and having a moving picture, provides a slower response time from your perspective. A 8-bit panel such as IPS and PVA are already 8-bit colors their lowest end, so that "trick your eyes" technique is not needed, so 16ms response time, actually appears faster compared to a TN panel of the similar speeds. Input lag exists on IPS and PVA panels (PVA has more of it), but we are talking about <20ms input lag on average, and that won't affect your games. And even then, most good monitors has "game" or "Video" mode, which reduces color accuracy for reduce input lag. So, you can switch between modes depending on your needs.

    If you want a monitor with 0ms response time, 0 input lag, best image quality, great colors, and 180degree view angle, you need a CRT monitor, not an LCD. CRT's are the old tube based monitors (yes, LCD was going backward in image output, for the name of bigger, lighter, more adjustable and slimmer displays). Today, LCD technology evolved A LOT since then, but still not there.. maybe the next screen (OLED) technology might resolved that and bring the best of both CRT and LCD technology into one, but we there yet.

    My recommendation is the Dell U2410 - check teh forum, I and others posted A LOT of information, screen shots and such on it. It's great 24inch monitor. And you know what's the best part.. not only it has about every connection you can possibly need (Display Port, 2x DVI, VFA, component, composite, HDMI), it's fully adjustable, 24inch, matte screen, metal base, USB hub, card reader, rotate and pivotes, picture in picture, 178degree vide in ALL direction, but it's also 1920x1200 (it's a 1200p monitor) - that means, more work area for you when you work, and even better in games :D

    However, the U2410, is not a gaming only monitor.. its a balance monitor, which feature low (or very low, depending on your standard) backlight bleeding (which is very good, as TN panels are quiet high to a level that they alter colors), good color accuracy, excellent view angle, all matte, but also for games. Check it out and see if it fits yor needs, if it does, they are different models/brands out here with similar specs and you can see which one best fit your budget, trust in the brand, and product features.
     
    Last edited: 4 Jan 2010
  3. bagman

    bagman Minimodder

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    the nec is the best one in that price range but there is always the dell sp2309w which cpc also rated highly but i would go for the nec persnally
     
  4. Elton

    Elton Officially a Whisky Nerd

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    The SP2309W is pretty decent, but it has a TN panel, the NEC has a E-IPS panel, and Goodbytes has explained enough of panel technology etc.

    In terms of input lag, unless you have extremely good eyes you can't see past 12ms of input lag.

    +1 to the CRT comment, although you need to up the refresh rate or suffer.
     
  5. steve_1979

    steve_1979 What's a Dremel?

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    Thanks for the advice everyone - very helpful.

    Since posting I have found this site which explains why the response time is less noticeable than expected and also does a direct comparison between the NEC EA231WMi and the Dell U2410. www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews/nec_ea231wmi.htm
     
  6. fingerbob69

    fingerbob69 Minimodder

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    I was all set to go with Dell's 2209wa then this Nec comes along ....confused!

    Which would give the best gaming experience ...ie zero ghosting with the least lag!

    As it happens, whichever I go for is going to replace a 19" LG Flatron 915ft + and I just can't help but feel I'm going to be slightly disappointed with whichever I choose!
     
  7. GoodBytes

    GoodBytes How many wifi's does it have?

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    As I said.. if you want ZERO ghosting (impossible with LCD's), and virtually no input lag (TN panel). Then any cheap ass 2ms screen will do. Fancier they are, the more they try to do color accuracy and uses better panel with wider view angle, which increases ghosting and input lag.

    You have to understand the limitation of LCD technology!
    If you want everything, than you have no choice to get a CRT monitor instead (the big ones with the tube). They are the ONLY ones, so far in the market, that offer 180degree view angle on all directions, no ghosting, absolute backlight bleeding, "speed of light" response time, pure blacks, color accuracy, 8-bit colors per channel). Just get one with 85Hz or higher at the native resolution. However, be prepared to look on ebay, as they are not in production anymore. Hey, dont' blame me, I used to love CRT's.. but the market said "I want thin!!!!", so we downgraded to LCD...

    Today the best monitor that you can find that offers color accuracy, 8-bit panel, low backlight bleeding (in comparison to other screens for the price), adjustable, non glossy, all without without costing a fortune, is the Dell U2410 (a 27inch version at even higher resolution is coming soon). Does it have input lag? Of course... it's a IPS panel.. so defenitly... does it cause you to suck in games? That is only you that sucks, and that blames on other thing instead of yourself, because 30ms PEAK lag, is not visible. How about response time, I see 16ms!!!? You want color accuracy, wide view angle, big screen, you have no choice... As I explained several times on the forum, personally I think that the 2ms response time will end up looking like a 16ms either way. The reason for this, is that the TN panels can only output 262,144 colors (6-bit), to produce the missing 16,515,072 colors (to make 16,777,216 colors - 8-bit), the panel is busy working on techniques to trick your eyes in believing, from far, that the colors are correct. One of the most used techniques, is to flash 2 colors close of each other really fast (up to 2ms), and hope to trick your eyes that you see the correct color. Now add THAT with a moving picture... and your eyes sees something that looks like 16ms. Last time i check games are made in 8-bit, and not 6-bit.

    Assuming that you use a 6-bit TN panel, without any techniques to produce the missing colors.

    Original:
    [​IMG]

    Emulated 6-bit colors:
    [​IMG]
    Of course, a 6-bit TN panel will never look like this (assuming its not broken). Either one will look like the above.. just one nicer than the other. But it was to show you where all these eye tricking techniques are applied... and you can see it's about everywhere, so in end result, your eyes will see about 16ms under motion. If I am not mistaken Wired magazine had an article on that. It's the kind of things that is really hard to prove as we can't put someone in someone else brain, sharing the same visuals. So it is for YOU to try and see 16ms IPS panel VS 2ms TN panel (don't start looking for 16ms TN panel, as that will be even worse). Now the problem with this... is that to a certain extend you can't use my word for this.. it's like back in the CRT area.. scientist says that the eyes can't see flickering at 60Hz... sadly a CRT monitor at 60Hz will give you headaches for most people within minutes.
    75Hz is getting better, 85Hz is what MOST people are happy. Some people prefer 100-150Hz as they are more sensitive to it. I don't know why you don't feel the same thing when you look at a lamp directly... my guess is that a lamp when it "turns off" in it's 60Hz cycle, it actually fades out rather then cut sharply like a CRT does. Meaning that the filament is still hot enough to still produce some level of light. I am just guessing here.. I have no idea.


    Now that I you have a better understanding on the different technologies out there, tell us what YOU are looking for monitor, what you care and what you don't care, and we will TRY to find the best one fitting your budget. Random example:
    - I work on spreadsheets and graph all day and I play games here and there, because graph lines don't require million of colors, I can settle with 6-bit panel and low level of color accuracy.. as long as my blue is blue and not pink.. I am fine. Because, I work on the computer all day the computer I need an adjustable stand to make it move and I would like to have the monitor in portrait layout when I type my reports. I tend to always sit in front of the computer straight in front, so I don't care about wide view angles... something descent is all I need. Oh and I hate glossy, No glossy! It distracts me and I can't stand it. My budget is ~300$ Canadian before taxes. I would like one from a reputable company. I am ready to cut out support service quality to reach my goal. I don't need a super thin boarder screen as I don't plan to do dual screen setup, but even if I do, I won't start putting thing in between the 2 screens. I also don't ind backlit bleeding, as long as it's not doesn't drastically shift the image with gradients. I saw a 24inch, and I believe I'll need that size for my work, as with Win7, I can easily put windows side by side, I think it will be great as I can fit 2 windows nicely this way on one screen.
    Answer:
    - http://www.samsung.com/ca/consumer/...W/ZC/index.idx?pagetype=prd_detail&returnurl= (better view angle (178degree on all directions), but not great with dark colors color reproduction)
    - http://www.samsung.com/ca/consumer/...AC/index.idx?pagetype=prd_detail&tab=features (standard low view angel (160 degree horizontal, 150 degree vertical) might be bother some in portrait mode, fine with all colors, also features a built-in sensor to auto-rotate the screen for you when you rotate it from landscape to portrait)

    The above example is what we need. DETAILS. What you liked and hated about your previous screen, and what you want and expect all by being realistic.
     
    Last edited: 23 Jan 2010
  8. Combatus

    Combatus Bit-tech Modding + hardware reviews Lover of bit-tech Super Moderator

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    Hi Steve,
    I reviewed the monitor and can honestly say it isn't an issue. No one has been able to spot significant ghosting on decent TFTs since they went sub 16ms and I put it through it's paces in a few FPS games and it was as we mentioned, barely noticeable if at all. Most IPS based screens have higher response times than TN screens but in my view they are definitely worth it for the superior image quality. What you gain by going for a 2ms TN is far outweighed by the fantastic visuals.
     

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