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New Orleans = Screwed

Discussion in 'Serious' started by RotoSequence, 28 Aug 2005.

  1. Wesker

    Wesker What's a Dremel?

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    Ive been back, its there and its perfectly intact. Went back Wendsday to repair the roof of my garage.
     
  2. Gooey_GUI

    Gooey_GUI Wanted: Red Shirts

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    The previous Surgeon General has made known that homes which are/were submerged by the flooding have dangers from mold for those that inhabit and those that rescue. Also, anything that was submerged can carry water born illnesses. Even touching the water can cause major illness. There is a danger from eating canned goods as well.

    I know that Katrina affected a huge area which wasn't in the flooded area, but I am just getting out the info.
     
  3. Dad

    Dad You talkin to me?

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    I wasn't knocking the city, only stating fact. From what I understand, after your current mayor was elected on '02, he cleaned up a lot of the crime and corruption. In fact New Orleans was on a very short list of cities (New Orleans, Anchorage, Washington & Boston) I wanted to vacation to sometime.
     
  4. supermonkey

    supermonkey Deal with it

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    I just thought I would add my two cents in. I live in Houston we have seen an incredible number of people come to our city.

    From the first day, I told all of my friends and family that nobody understands exactly how far-reaching the effects of this storm are. And we likely won't begin to understand the effects for some time to come. I told them all that the Astrodome won't be able to hold everyone. I said that they needed to forego football for a little bit and open up Reliant Stadium, and tehn the George R. Brown Convention Center. Low and behold, it all started to happen. The Astrodome filled up, Reliant and George R. Brown were opened up. The local media has done a fair amount of coverage on the chaos at the dome. Rapes, beatings, general mischief. Nobody is willing to talk a whole lot about the good things that have happened here, and elsewhere.

    Jim "Matress Mac" McIngvale, one of Houston's most prominent businessmen and a great philanthropist, opened up his furniture store to the refugees. He allowed all of them to sleep in the store. And from what I hear, they will all be allowed to take the beds with them if/when they finally move out.

    My co-workers and I have been visiting a local Motel 6. The refugees there literally have nothing but the shirts on their backs and their cars in teh parking lot. Today, my coworker's BBQ cookoff team cooked up a brisket sandwich lunch for all the people. Our group donated countless goods: food, toiletries, books, toys, clothing. You name it, we donated it. At lunch today, a woman mentioned that she has been combing her hair with a fork for the last week. We went out and bought her a comb and brush. It made her day.

    These people, who had nothing, tried to pay us for lunch. When told that the lunch was free, they offered to cook dinner for us with the little food they had.

    Some of the local elementary schools now have 50+ kids per classroom. Local high schools now have Houston students in the morning, Louisiana students in the afternoon. The TAKS, the Texas standardized test, will not be counte this year, due to the sheer number of ou-of-state students. Also consider that over 20,000 people are now looking for temporary or permanent jobs in Houston alone.

    Please, if you can give, give as much as you can. These people are in need of some kindness. They need to see the good that is left in us.

    We have not yet begun to see the full effects of this. But seeing how much good there is in the people around me, I am fully confident that New Orleans, and all of the other cities hit by Katrina, will be rebuilt. Because, for the most part, the people are good.

    Sorry for such a long post, but I just had to get that off my chest. I feel better now :)

    -monkey
     
  5. quack

    quack Minimodder

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    This is the sort of story the media should be promoting now, instead of rehashing all the old footage and statements about how much of a complete ****-up the rescue/aid effort started out to be. Start bringing out the positive in the disaster instead of constantly ranting about the negative.
     
  6. quack

    quack Minimodder

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    * The hard task of finding, identifying and counting the dead begins. Pretty much every house in the city is going to have to be searched for bodies. So far the count stands at 59 (10 from the Superdome), and it will just keep rising. Mississipi's death toll currently stands at 161.

    * Some news outlets are reporting that it may take up to 9 months to make the city livable again.

    * George Bush Sr and Bill Clinton will lead a national fund-raising effort to help the victims of the hurricane.

    * An Open Letter to the President from the Times-Picayune of New Orleans.

    * (AP) Not even Hurricane Katrina could prevent the Decadence Parade from being staged in the French Quarter. The annual Labor Day gay celebration drew about two dozen people. Street musician Matt Menold summed it up best: "It's New Orleans, man. We're going to celebrate."

    More here...
     
  7. Dad

    Dad You talkin to me?

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    I agree completely. It's time that the news media for once to stop reporting only the bad with snipits of good.

    I've been hearing reports on tv that there are police officers and firemen comitting suicide now. :\

    It should have been a seperate, cabinet level entity all along.
     
  8. quack

    quack Minimodder

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    Repairs have been completed on the 17th Street canal levee breach in New Orleans and water is being pumped out of the canal and back into Lake Pontchartrain.
    ---
     
  9. Dad

    Dad You talkin to me?

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    From slashdot:

    This is simply stunning - the most succinct and eloquant summation of the situation this far.

    http://media.putfile.com/OlbermannSwings [putfile.com]

    From the opinion piece:

    Most chillingly of all, this is the Law and Order and Terror government. It promised protection -- or at least amelioration -- against all threats: conventional, radiological, or biological. It has just proved that it cannot save its citizens from a biological weapon called standing water.
     
  10. kiljoi

    kiljoi I *am* a computer king.

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    Well, I was listening to the radio this morning on the way into work, and they raised an interesting point. Apparantly, there is a law that forbids the president from sending Federal troops into a state without express permission from state authorities. Now, this could help explain why everything took so long. On the other hand though, I can't think of a single person that would have faulted the president for saying "**** by-the-book, those people need help, and I'm going to help them." I don't know about you guys, but that would have made me very very happy, and possibly a Bush supporter. That wasn't the case though. That's one thing about politics that pisses me off, people hiding behind the beauracracy of it all, and claiming "It's not my fault, that's what the book says." Personally, when people's lives are at stake, the "Proper Channels" can go screw themselves.
     
  11. Dad

    Dad You talkin to me?

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    That's what I've been saying all along. It's called the Posse Comitatus Act (thanks to cpu121 for reminding me of it's name) and is a provision within the US constitution. If Bush had said to hell with it, he would have been in violation of the Constitution. Remember, this nations government is a FEDERALIST system which is supposed to mean that the individual state has more power than the federal government does. I fully believe that the majority of the problems and deaths could have been avoided if the LOCAL state and city government had authorized the release and use of the hundreds of school and city busses owned by the city.

    Here's a sat image of hundreds of city school busses abandoned and unused durring the evacuation, now leaking tons of diesel fuel and motor oil into the flood waters.

    [​IMG]
     
  12. kiljoi

    kiljoi I *am* a computer king.

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    I still say that if he had done so in this situation, it would have been the proper decision, and no one would (I hope) fault him for it. I guess I'm just one of those people that believe things should not be done by-the-book all the time. If breaking a rule saves 10,000 lives, that rule can kiss my ass.
     
  13. Firehed

    Firehed Why not? I own a domain to match.

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    Well put.

    The google satellite images are just astounding... basically take the old one, and turn it into a "bluescale" image (if you will). All the news coverage really just can't convey that.
     
  14. Dad

    Dad You talkin to me?

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    Yes, hindsight would agree with you, but the fact is that Bush did what he was supposed to do in cases like this. The onus falls upon the city of New Orleans and the State of Louisiana to follow their own 250-page state Emergency Operations Plan, which they did not do. In addition, Here's the southeast Louisiana evac plan supplement (pdf), which on page 13, read paragraph 5 reads:

    They did not release any school or municipal buses or any other government owned vehicle to help in the evauation. They just told people to go to the Superdome and convention center. Imagine how many people could have been saved if these buses were released:

    [​IMG]

    Actually, the evacuation should have been called by the local officials, but was not. Gov. Blanco, standing beside the mayor [of New Orleans] at a news conference, said President Bush called and personally appealed for a mandatory evacuation for the low-lying city, which is prone to flooding.

    There's a ton of information about all this over at Junkyard Blog.


    From the blog:
    I couldn't agree more


    EDIT::

    From Foxnews:
    EPA Confirms Toxins in Flood Water, Five Deaths Linked

    WASHINGTON — Floodwaters in New Orleans contain bacteria associated with sewage that are at least 10 times higher than acceptable safety levels, making direct contact by rescue workers and remaining residents dangerous, the first government tests confirmed Wednesday.

    Five deaths in Texas and Mississippi have already been attributed to contact with the toxic water, the CDC reported Wednesday, as New Orleans Mayor C. Ray Nagin ordered forced evacuations of residents remaining in the city. Though a large scale outbreak of infectious disease has yet to materialize, the health risks posed by the polluted water remained a top health concern.

    "Human contact with the flood water should be avoided as much as possible," said Environmental Protection Agency Administrator Stephen L. Johnson.

    Also found in the first round of testing were elevated lead levels, a risk if people, particularly children, were to drink the water.


    More here

    Oh Jesus... Here we go with part II...
     
    Last edited: 7 Sep 2005
  15. kiljoi

    kiljoi I *am* a computer king.

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    Well, you knock down one hurdle just to see another. Now we've gone from a natural disaster, to a man-made disaster, to a biological/chemical disaster. How wonderful...
     
  16. Dad

    Dad You talkin to me?

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    Yea, no kidding. The scarry thing about all this is we've got Ophilia brewing off the Florida coast waiting in the wings. They say it's supposed to start to head north and then turn east, but you never know...



    EDIT::

    From this article

    In the 1970s, the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers’ Lake Pontchartrain and Vicinity Hurricane Barrier Project planned to build fortifications at two strategic locations, which would keep massive storms on the Gulf of Mexico from causing Lake Pontchartrain to flood the city. An article in the May 28, 2005, New Orleans Times-Picayune stated, “Under the original plan, floodgate-type structures would have been built at the Rigolets and Chef Menteur passes to block storm surges from moving from the Gulf into Lake Pontchartrain.”

    “The floodgates would have blocked the flow of water from the Gulf of Mexico, through Lake Borgne, through the Rigolets [and Chef Mentuer] into Lake Pontchartrain,” declared Professor Gregory Stone, the James P. Morgan Distinguished Professor and Director of the Coastal Studies Institute of Louisiana State University. “This would likely have reduced storm surge coming from the Gulf and into the Lake Pontchartrain,” Professor Stone told Michael P. Tremoglie during an interview on September 6. The professor concluded, “[T]hese floodgates would have alleviated the flooding of New Orleans caused by Hurricane Katrina.”

    ---

    Why was this project aborted? As the Times-Picayune wrote, “Those plans were abandoned after environmental advocates successfully sued to stop the projects as too damaging to the wetlands and the lake's eco-system.” Specifically, in 1977, a state environmentalist group known as Save Our Wetlands (SOWL) sued to have it stopped. SOWL stated the proposed Rigolets and Chef Menteur floodgates of the Lake Pontchartrain Hurricane Prevention Project would have a negative effect on the area surrounding Lake Pontchartrain.
     
    Last edited: 8 Sep 2005
  17. quack

    quack Minimodder

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    Under the Posse Comitatus Act, isn't there a provision that allows the President to take whatever means are necessary in the case of a serious emergency? Didn't New Orleans count as a serious emergency?
     
  18. Dad

    Dad You talkin to me?

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    Yes, there is a provision for the Predident to suspend the act, which he did after the flooding started and he sent the reserves in. As far as aid goes, everyone has to realize that in the United States, the individual state is responsable for 1st line defense, recovery and rescue after a natural or man-made disaster unless it's in an act of war (Pearl Harbor). The federal government is included only when requested by the state OR the president suspends the act if the situtation warrents. If you really look at the timeline:

    Aug 26: The National Hurricane Center warns that Katrina is expected to reach dangerous Category 4 intensity before making landfall in Mississippi or Louisiana. Hours later, in anticipation of a possible landfall, Mississippi Gov. Haley Barbour and Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco declare states of emergency. This does NOT call for an evacuation or the use of military. This only allows the feds to free money for the region(s) AFTER it hits. Actually, with this act, this should have been a trigger to call for evacuation of low-lying areas and the release of school and municipal buses to evacuate the people who didn't have means to leave as per South East Louisiana's Evacuation Plan Supplement.

    Aug 27: Katrina is upgraded to a Category 3, or major hurricane, with the Gulf Coast in its path. During the day, residents of Louisiana's low-lying areas are told they must evacuate; residents in other low-lying areas are urgently advised to do so. President Bush declares a state of emergency in Louisiana freeing up federal money and calls for a manditory evacuation which also starts the mobilization of the military. The problem is that they had to stage outside the "danger area" which was very large (Louisiana Mississippi & parts of Alabama were under a state of emergency). If the 26th wasn't a trigger to authorize the use of the buses to evacuate, this should have been the clincher.

    Aug 28: 7 a.m.: Hurricane Katrina intensifies to Category 5, the worst and highest category on the Saffir-Simpson scale. 10 a.m.: As Katrina hits 175 mph winds, New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin orders mandatory evacuations.

    Aug 29: 7 a.m.: Katrina makes landfall on the Louisiana coast between Grand Isle and the mouth of the Mississippi River. 11a.m. Katrina makes another landfall near the Louisiana-Mississippi state line with 125 mph winds. Two major flood-control levees are breached, and the National Weather Service reports "total structural failure" in parts of New Orleans. A section of the roof of the Louisiana Superdome, where 10,000 people are taking refuge, opens.

    Sept 1: Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco requests the mobilization of 40,000 National Guard troops. THIS opens up the gate for the military.

    Actually, the Coast Guard is the only military branch that has the authorization to mobilize under these conditions as eventhough they are part of the regular armed forces, they are controlled by the state. The Coast Guard was on scene the within hours of Katrina leaving the region. The thing of it is that the damn storm was so large, it took a little while for them to get up to full-force.
     
    Last edited: 8 Sep 2005
  19. quack

    quack Minimodder

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    Ah, makes sense now. :) Cheers for that timeline. I saw a reporter asking for one from Rumsfeld the other day, I wonder if it'll say the same thing
     
  20. Dad

    Dad You talkin to me?

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    Well, if he doesn't either he is lying or the sources I used for the timeline (CNN, Foxnews, noaa & various newspapers from the effected region) are incorrect ;)

    Can you now see that the majority of blame should be placed squarely on the State of Louisiana and Govenor Blanco for all the deaths? I'm not saying that Bush or FEMA or whoever else is completely clean in this, there's plenty of blame to go around in this situation, it's just that the state did not follow it's own operating procedures. If the buses from only one of the school bus lots in each district were used, thousands would have been able to evacuate and hundreds of lives would have been spared. Actually, by not implementing their evacuation procudure, one could say that the State of Louisiana and in perticular the Governor were climinaly neglegent and she could be brought before an impeachment board and maybe even brought up on legal charges.

    Imagine every place else that was hit. I mean, remember, New Orleans was not ground zero, that honor is with southeast Louisiana in the St. Bernard and Plaquamines parishes which had 66,000 people. Think New Orleans got a lot of damage? Nearly everything in those two areas is completely destroyed. The Fire Chief in St. Bernard has gone on record: "If you dropped a bomb on this place, it couldn't be any worse than this..." In these areas alone, they expect the death toll to be in the hundreds.


    EDIT::
    More fuel for the fire against the state...

    Red Cross: State rebuffed relief efforts

    BATON ROUGE, Louisiana (CNN) -- Louisiana officials rebuffed American Red Cross requests to enter New Orleans with relief supplies last week because of concerns over logistical difficulties, Red Cross and state officials said Thursday.

    The Red Cross never launched its relief effort in the city.

    The national president of the American Red Cross, Marsha Evans, first made the request to undertake the operation during a visit to the state on September 1, three days after Hurricane Katrina struck, a local Red Cross chapter official said.

    Vic Howell, chief executive officer of the agency's Louisiana Capital Area Chapter, said he renewed that request the next day to Col. Jay Mayeaux, the deputy director of the Louisiana Office of Homeland Security and Emergency Preparedness.
     
    Last edited: 9 Sep 2005

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