If you look in your dictionary you'll find 'harm' means to physically injure someone/something. Please tell me, what physical injury does mace cause someone? We can be pedantic about this all day long, but it is agreed in law, case law, policy and opinion that pepper spray is one of the lowest levels of force an Officer can use against someone. I'm not trying to justify what he done, and I don't agree with the fact that he just walked off (aftercare needs to be given), but people need to stop going on about pepper spray as if it's some deadly force. Have you ever come into contact with any kind of pepper spray?
I agree, it is among the lowest level of force. I can't speak for the UK nor the US but in Germany the use is classified as causing "grievous bodily harm". (Justified use against humans as self-defence is however allowed.) I'd classify that as a physical injury, but I'm not a lawyer, but yes, I agree, it is among the lowest level of force.
Your argument has been raised and shot down several times in this thread. Voiced opinions (in this case, chanting, not "shouting") are not a justification for physical violence and the NYPD's actions were not legal in any sense. Protestors filmed the abuse, the illegality was proved, and NYPD cops are currently being far nicer to harmless chanting women as long as they know their actions might make the mainstream news. Anyone who sidesteps political points in order to focus on ad hominem irrelevancies like weight and grooming wouldn't know an intelligent argument if it gave him an abstract lap-dance. Since you asked, I'll point out one instance of the activist's effectiveness: Unable to respond to any of his charges, the interviewer ultimately resorted to the most ridiculous argument possible: That Fox was not engaged in censorship because they were choosing to show that particular interview. Greta van Sustern then refused to air the interview after the interviewer claimed the activist's points about censorship were moot because the Fox network was supposedly offering him a public forum. How's that for unintelligent -- or would you prefer I talked about the interviewer's weight? Governments' endless and massive handouts to corporations -- neoliberalism's corporate welfare -- are corporations' and governments' faults and impact on people's wages, savings and safety nets in the event of economic crises. One point of having a civilized society is to prevent as many of its citizens as possible from starving and dying, not to appropriate government money that could have paid for food and emergency housing to bankroll corporations' massive and often arbitrary projects, bail them out every time they fail, and lower their taxes to the point that working class people pay more than they do. Another point of having such a society is not to allow a tiny group of people to overpay itself radically large amounts while raising the cost of living past workers' means and maintaining lobbyists and paid politicians to deny them sufficient wages to cover food and housing -- let alone enjoy the cultural benefits Tocqueville outlined as the minimum for any civilized society. America, for one, needs to reinstate the legislation of the previous fifty years, which prevented corporations from loopholing emergency downsizing as a way to cheat long-term workers out of retirement benefits; and artificially inflating the value of a company in order to sell it or individual CEOs' shares, leaving the company and its workers in severe financial trouble. Prior to the Chicago School of Economics' work in the 70s, no one elected to give CEOs major shares of the companies for which they worked for and the world was a better place for it. You claim to champion economic freedom for individuals, but you're really defending a handful of billionaires' ongoing theft of everyone else's money.
No, but if what you are complaining about is a small percentage of the world owning most of the money then you are a hypocrite. I do agree that the American government is ridiculous when it comes to coprprate tax breaks though.
To interject here on the subject of physical harm, if you want to carry mace as a security guard you have to be hit with it, so you don't use it indiscriminately. (or at least you did when I was there...) So, in order for me to carry mace, I was handcuffed, held between two other guards who were first-aid certified, with three other medical personnel (a paramedic and two EMTs) for a single short burst to the face. My vision did not fully return for two weeks. I'm one of the lucky ones, it carries a higher chance of blinding than you think. Also, my taste buds were messed up for months. I will not eat pepperoni any more. (Yes, it was that bad.) When they hit me, they immediately led me to water. They washed my eyes out for 20 minutes, and I had oxygen available if I had need of it. I was completely blind for about three hours, during which point I stayed with the medical personnel. After that, someone took me home. The people I was employed with at the time called to make sure I was OK. I was told I got off light. So I would consider that as bodily harm, from someone who has suffered it. And the cops that did it should be in jail for that kind of behavior. However, the businesses own the cops, so no chance of that.
Only if a black belt with red stripes in Krav Maga is easy to defeat. I don't need my eyes (as evidenced by my loss of one this year) to do plenty in life. As I recall, the stuff you guys have and the stuff legal here aren't in the same league at all. Like how we're allowed to carry tasers too, or how I wore a gun as a security officer. I knew what I was getting hit with and got one burst. That cop emptied a can on that protester. That was an intentional act of hate and aggression. There is no way that words ever justify that kind of response. I lose respect for cops more every day. It's impossible almost to find one that's not simply out to bully others, at least around here. These were of the same breed. There may be good ones out there, but they are a dying breed.
I was only messing around. It can't be helped that humour is so lacking over there. 'Stuff' used over here is PAVA (pelargonic acid vanillylamide), which is much stronger than CS (the video shows a 'gas' type effect coming from the canister, rather than a stream, indicating CS).
Well then, I apologize if I was a bit brusque. It's difficult to see Americans treated this way. You're not doing it, I know, but it's still hard. I attempted to enlist to serve my country, and my now terminal condition prevented me from doing so. I defend her in rhetoric and prose, but most don't count that as much (or anything) any more. I also certainly didn't point that cop comment at you, as I have no knowledge of the workings of cops there in the UK. Just figured I'd get that out of the way as well. Also, I agree on the CS comment. I would expect a whole canister of CS to cause harm, though. Its label even says that.
doesn't matter what was in the can.. the cop was wrong- I have my own opinions on cops from what I've dealt with personally.. but it's nothing to do with this video like steve jobs said.. out with the old, in with the new.. the new is a bunch of jackoffs who hide behind a badge to enforce their low iq on everyone else.. there needs to be a re education because a lot of the guys in law enforcement today are really not in their right mind I've known this since I was a teen.. seen the profiling first hand.. amazing that this happened to a bunch of white kids- it's good, it might help open some eyes.. they finally see in the media what minorities have known and dealt with since 90's (mentality of let's do this and sweep it under the carpet..) think the guy in the op video nailed it revolution shouldn't be tossed around casually.. but it's getting to the point where enough is enough.. obama is in wall streets back pocket- just look at who he surrounds himself with romney looks like the next in line.. but being mormon has me kind of uneasy as to what kind of policy maker he'll be.. you know his cabinet will be mormon- and what do we really know about them? this country is going nowhere fast with the deficit too- it's already to the point where we're spending half of every dollar in interest.. how is that sustainable I think this is a good protest to show average people outside the tea party aren't going to sit back while bankers ruin what little we have left and then bail.. wall street frustrated too? give me a break- go eat more chocolate bon bons and call everyone camping down there a loser.. remember when the house of cards falls apart again- those are the real losers who made it happen.. and after it happens they will still call you a loser for not seeing it coming =E
No offence taken, don't worry . I suppose what I'm trying to say is that if this was ever to be run as an 'assault' it would be a charge of common assault rather than bodily harm as the spray gives no injury. I'd rather be sprayed any day of the week than batoned/tasered/shot. Infact, speaking from experience, a lot of empty hand restraints and pressure points hurt a damn sight more than any spray, and definitely leave more noticable harm/injury.
Quite a statement to make, considering the amount of serving Officers who also have degrees and other high levels of education. But you're probably just one of those people who think they are better than the average person trying to bring home a pay packet?
easy to say fishlock.. you've probably never been profiled.. I have on many occasions and if I'd given them any kind of grief I would have ended up like rodney king or worse I posted on this before though.. it's not all cops- but it seems the rookies nowdays are really out there.. maybe it's always been like this- I didn't start driving until the late 80's and that's when I ran into this sort of thing.. lately it's been cool.. but it's only because I know some people nowdays my cousin is a cop too.. he could tell you enough stories that make you say wtf.. how is this happening.. like the sergeant selling weed captured in busts for extra money.. he had to switch departments because he didn't want to cover for the guy
He's talking about the kind of cops we have around here, who routinely get caught knocking out a taillight to create a violation. I got stopped once because they thought I was Latino. I'm half Seminole. A valid (at that point) tribal affiliation card solved that, but the concept is the one he's espousing. Yes, there are those that enter the police force to serve and protect, but they are now a silent minority. The ones we have around here are for the most part useless and dangerous.
You're telescoping your point until it becomes reducible to two sides of a multifaceted issue, and those two sides are antipodal in their position. Either you're in the Fox camp and simply call ordinary people who disagree with your theories de facto hypocrites, or you're giving credence to the stereotype that all Americans are in positions of financial power, and that devastating numbers of poor people in America either don't exist or don't deserve to be counted. Do you really have so little firsthand experience of America as to believe that all Americans, including the working class mother and child in the photo, "own most of the money"? Do you really think the UK has the only genuine working class? I agree, but I do hope you'll google neoliberalism, particularly under Google Scholar. The relentless privatization of public works goes far beyond tax breaks and is systematically destroying infrastructure and public education throughout the world. Economist Joseph E. Stiglitz has some rather interesting things to say on the subject.
They do; go to any developing country and you'll see how well off these people actually are. The global poverty line is $1.25 a day (in purchasing power), in the US the poverty line is close to $30 a day. A figure often quoted is that 20% of the world owns 80% of the money, I'm willing to bet that 95% of the citizens of the United States are in that 20% (and indeed the same thing for the UK). I'm not saying that the situation is good the way it is, but picketing large corporations which are one of the main reason first world nations enjoy so many of the priviledges they do nowadays just because the system is starting to leave you behind (just like it has done to countless others, others who's cries barely register) seems rather shallow; take it up with the government if you think things are unfair, don't blame the people who've been taking advantage of what they can do. I understand how many people in the UK and the US struggle every day to keep living but if you take a look round the world you'll see just how much worse the problem could be.
If that $30's buying power is only equal to that $1.25 elsewhere, which in many cases it is, then your argument is invalid.
all I can say is.. there's a big buttsecks coming- and you can take it the easy way or the hard way were going to wait on a house.. because end of next year when it's like the zombie apocalypse and everyone is running around with their hands above their heads.. we'll go and buy a sweet house- sit back and be like the rest of the wall street assholes who cashed out
Why did you post a mother who brings her baby in her arms to a protest, with a sign claiming that she cares for that child? I don't need to say how stupid that is, the picture speaks a thousand words.
