This conclusion is why I objected. In this case, we could spray anyone at all times ummm, we had an interesting occasion in the Netherlands last year. During the national "Remembrance of the Dead" there is a 2 minute silence. During these 2 minutes silence a guy screamed. This caused a mass panic, the guy is in jail. Yelling may cost you
That's fine, but not if you are going to suggest that there isn't a similarly tenuous link between using pepper spray on disorderly protesters, and suggestions of unnecessary force or police brutality? I won't suggest that the insults being shouted at NYPD members have no effect, as if I expect anyone to brush these sorts of things like water off a duck's back, and I also won't suggest that the NYPD, or any other human being on the planet, deserves to be spoken to like they are some sort of scum, especially not when all the NYPD are initially doing, is asking angry protesters to calm down, and disperse. And no need to misquote anyone, for both myself and the self proclaimed experienced sound expert coolerking (or CK for short) , have stated that a single protester can achieve well over 120db, and merely a few protesters as often shown by any of the videos just from within this thread, would be easily able to produce 130+db on eardrum damaging sound pressure on NYPD members. We established that ~140db was a bit unlikely, no need to try and drag that out. I also provided plenty of links to back up the fact that over 120db will damage human ears. Yes, absolutely. No protesters have been arrested or sprayed or manhandled simply for speaking... have a look at any of the video's in this thread of the protesters, even the one in the OP, for a sample of their disorderly behavior. I don't think I really need to start on how much BS is being suggested in that video? I mean really, are any of us not even slightly aware of how many unarmed civilians, including women and children (yes, think of the children) have been KILLED in Iraq, each time the US decides to invade? Would any of us actually try and suggest, that the treatment of the OWS protesters by the NYPD, remotely compares to how the citizens of Iraq have been treated by US troops Seriously, that Marine and any others that feel like standing up to the man, might want to pull themselves in line, or they'll be arrested, just like these guys: Exactamondo dude!!111 Screaming at an inappropriate time can and often will get you in serious trouble!!! And yes, in many countries of the world, you can legally spray anyone at all times.... IF someone is screaming and intimidating you - it's called self defense, and again I assume we are all aware of this fact This is why many boys and girls will carry things like mace, to protect themselves if any member of the public is intimidating them.
I wouldn't go as far as to say expert but as for experienced I think I qualify. I'm not sure you have. My main concern with suggesting that hearing loss (and thus justifying the use of pepper spray) is likely to be caused by screaming is the lack of evidence presented. Other than - http://decibelcar.com/index.php/menugeneric/87 - which has no source stated, do the other links give a definitive level for hearing loss, permanent or otherwise? I've only skim read so apologies if I've missed it but I couldn't see a definitive level stated in either of the Wikipedia articles mentioned.
You say that like a car audio website isn't a holy place How about these guys then: http://www.nidcd.nih.gov/health/hearing/pages/noise.aspx Scroll down a bit to What sounds cause NIHL? to find this:
That's where we disgress. Reaction to screaming and/or intimidation is not considered self defense, as screaming and/or intimidating is not considered an attack.
I dunno about that: http://wings.buffalo.edu/law/bclc/germind.htm http://wings.buffalo.edu/law/bclc/ger1s32.htm http://wings.buffalo.edu/law/bclc/ger1s33.htm
You're in Melborne right? How much is buffalo law worth there? or here in Germany? (edit...i shoud read quicker sorry) "Self defense is that defense which is required in order to prevent a present unlawful attack on oneself or on another" "The perpetrator will not be punished if he exceeds the bounds of self defense because of confusion, fear or fright. " Just causing fright does not justify the use of force, and US "Mace" is force. The use of german "teargas" MAY be allowed in an act of self defence, but not every shout or intimidation is considered an attack. Short: if somebody attacs you (and you can prove that) you may use teargas (CS-gas) for self-defense (but you will go to court for using it). If you use US-style mace...that's a forbidden weapon right there. Basically it seems, we're coming from different civilisations that have different angles on violence. No personal hard feelings though.
Yes, it's not Buffalo law, it's a translation of German law and don't forget to read the last link: http://wings.buffalo.edu/law/bclc/ger1s33.htm I'd sure be acting in defense driven by fear and confusion if an angry, screaming mob was headed for me But this is just in response to significant fright actually being a justifiable reason for self defense. I'm not suggesting the NYPD members were confused, they did repeatedly try asking the protesters to calm down initially before being forced to escalate their response to the situation.
I don't get this one (and I'm dutch myself). So the guy screams during a national silence...okay that's...rude Other people tackle him (huh) Some other guy (not apprehanded) shouts: "a bomb a bomb get out" Again another guy drops a suitcase. (checked afterwards to be no bomb) Mass panic ensues, the queen (present on the occasion) is removed for protection. Now what I don't get. They hold on only to the first screaming guy. He didn't do anything really? Why can't I stand on a corner and scream if i feel like it? Freedom of screach so to say?
Ah, you've misread that one The purpetrator in this case is the one using self defense. And just because the state chooses not to punish you, it doesn't mean you've got the right to do it (you'll also still be liable, as that is not the same as getting punished)
MV, you repeatedly insist that you would do what the NYPD did because the crowd appears threatening and is causing physical damage through the noise they generate. The point I, and I think many others on this thread are trying to make is that you are not a cop. Cops are (or should be) trained to handle non-violent protests differently. I'm sorry, but noise will happen when masses of people gather together. That needs to be excluded from the decision making process as it is a part of these people's rights to gather and express themselves freely.
Haven't misread, I can tell that the perpetrator is the one who acted in self defense The point was, that someone can over react in self defense, and the law will not punish you for it, even in Germany. If someone was to take this to the extreme, they could try to get away with shooting people in the head for screaming and scaring at them, but yes, a jury will most likely find this completely unreasonable, unless it could be proven that the screaming people were lethally armed for example. But there aren't many self defense options readily available to the public, that are any more tame than using pepper spray or some form of teargas. Can you think of any One of the others in this thread, who also seems to think every single protester deserves to be sprayed, is an actual Cop. You might agree with us, if these protesters were gathered outside your workplace, and your friends or family want to visit you, but they are too scared to approach due to the intimidating mob.
That the law MAY not punish you doesn't mean the action is legal. They may refrain from punishing you for overreacting. Also: no jury's in Germany
Have you ever been in that situation or is this purely academic? I couldn't count the number of times I've had to make my way home from school, or later work, during riots. And I mean riots, not these pissy social disturbances, true riots - Looting, hijacking, overturned burning cars, missiles from bricks to molotov cocktails, and usually a small group of armed civilians. I can tell you this - I'm much more scared of cops. Cause-driven mobs keep themselves in check with on-the-ground, peer-to-peer internal politics. Cops, on the other hand, get to defer responsibility - "I was scared for my personal safety, so the mob made me do it" or "I was just following (possibly ambiguous) orders". Cops should be setting an example, remaining calm and stone-faced against heightened emotions, not escalating the level of violence in the interaction. We pay them to be the guardians of society, not unaccountable thugs who vent their frustrations on women.
I been amongst a few mobs, but not riots, nothing like that! But hey, if you're more scared of your local Cops, then I'd like to know when the hell did cops start doing worse than overturning and burning cars, or throwing bricks and mototov cocktails?!?!?!? I mean, they must be doing worse than that, since the above is called "keeping themselves in check" In an ideal world, yes, Cops would be superhuman, incapable of letting emotions ever cloud or fuel their retaliation, in the real world however, this isn't the case. Just take a look at any of the protesters in this thread's videos, if you want to see people running wild, fueled with fiery emotions. Sure, there are even a few glimpses of police seeming to be retaliating to the protesters - I agree with you, NYPD members are definitely not superhuman - I don't expect them to be however.
