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On Immigration

Discussion in 'Serious' started by Risky, 18 Dec 2014.

  1. Risky

    Risky Well-Known Member

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    In the UK Immigration seems likely to become a major issue at the forthcoming election and afaik the (somewhat different) immigration issue is quite contentious in US politics too. The issue then spills over into questions of national identity, integration and multiculturalism

    Interestingly it is not automatically a left/right issue. My political views are mostly somewhere in the conservative-libertarian area. I am completely happy with anyone coming to the UK to work, provided they can adequately support themselves and their dependants. I think that those that seek to move across the globe to find work and better themselves will generally be the more motivated and able and will make a positive contribution to our economy.

    I'm less happy about anyone coming to the UK in the hope of taking advantage of our (non-contributory) benefits system (though this is a minority) and I think it reasonable to initially restrict access to some degree. But the problem is perhaps with the benefits rather than the immigrants. Offering Asylum to those in need is right and proper, but it should preferably be viewed as a temporary arrangement where possible.

    I'm pretty relaxed about issues of national identity. I am a Londoner (though after tomorrow I will no longer be living or working there :sigh:) . My parents met there having both moved from Ireland. It is hard to imagine that city without the babel of voices and the diversity of shops catering to people from all over the world. I don't feel this in any way take from the identity of the city or the country.

    We can't ignore that there are issues, though I note the that terrorist attacks in the last few years have been from second generation British Muslim and there are problems there that shouldn't be ignored even if inconvenient, but most of the time you meet people from Pakistan, from Poland, from wherever and they are just trying to get on, look after their kids just the same as I am.

    In short I think immigration of people seeking work is good for the country and I don't like the fact that so few politicians are currently willing to say anything positive.
     
  2. Mephestic

    Mephestic New Member

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    My issue with immigration is ultimately down to whether those that enter the country want to contribute or sponge off the state as well as accept the values of democracy and freedom for each individual. Many come here just for the benefits and support as the system is far too generous for people to abuse and those truly in need are not able to access this support.

    I think a points system is required as there are many people who would love to come to this country and work hard (my family were one of these) and build a productive life here while others are just here for the free lunch.
     
  3. Gunsmith

    Gunsmith Maximum Win

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    for me personally my beef with immigration is the lack of willingness to accept British society, here in the midlands we have the issue of muslims isolating themselves into segregated pockets refusing to respect British values and British law and who insist they are above it. anyone who challenges them is instantly ousted and branded there are parts of Birmingham where non muslims are not longer welcome.

    I'm with Mephestic on a points based system being a good idea but the problem is what do we do with those who have already come here for the "Free Lunch"?
     
  4. Nexxo

    Nexxo Stopped treating this country as if it was his own

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    "Many"? Figures, please?

    Goes both ways, I'm afraid. Plenty of places in Birmingham where my foreign coloured ass is not welcome. Moreover you may be too young to remember how the first generation of Caribbean and Asian immigrants were welcomed here. This created the poor, isolated ghettos of ethnic communities we see now --because nobody wanted to live next door to a foreigner. Not even the poor Whites. If you don't allow a minority group to integrate, they will marginalise. And then they'll compete.

    As for Muslims refusing to respect British laws and values, I can think of plenty White Brits who refuse to respect British laws and values.

    Anyway, all this noise about immigration is a smokescreen, like the noise made about being part of the EU. The truth is: government wants to centralise power wile disavowing accountability. This is why the NHS is being devolved into CCGs and opened up to private sector tendering; why social care is already largely privatised and why councils are getting less funds. Why we have crippling PFIs. Why legal aid has been scrapped. Why civil rights are dissolving under new anti-terror legislation. Everything that is wrong somehow is blamed on the others, whether terrorists, immigrants or the European Union. I mean, immigrants are responsible for traffic jams, don'cha know? It's a trick as old as the Third Reich. But people keep falling for it.
     
    Last edited: 28 Dec 2014
  5. Archtronics

    Archtronics Well-Known Member

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    That's this country's problem it's always someone else's fault, about time everyone started taking responsibility for there lives.

    I did enjoy when they discussed this on the radio and some bloke rang in and said he lost his box packing job to a polish bloke. Instead of blaming immigration they told the brit if he had done the best he could instead of going on endless *** breaks he would still be in a job.
     
  6. Corky42

    Corky42 Where's walle?

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    It would be a cold day in hell when a politician admitted they didn't build enough public services to accommodate a growing population, or foresee a lack of skilled workers.

    Immigration isn't a problem (imho) as long as you have sufficient capacity.
     
  7. Nexxo

    Nexxo Stopped treating this country as if it was his own

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    Indeed. Every five star hotel in London, every all-night supermarket, every cleaning company, every factory runs on poorly paid immigrants, legal and illegal. If we got rid of even just the illegal immigrants, this country's economy would crash on its ass. And I don't see Whitey from the estates queuing up at the job centre for menial jobs.

    What we do see is companies complaining that they just can't get the skilled workforce, in manufacturing and IT to name a few.
     
  8. Anfield

    Anfield Well-Known Member

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    Part of the problem with locals not wanting low paid jobs is the benefits system.

    Immigrants are often single with no kids, meaning the max benefits they can get is 70 quid a week (plus rent paid by housing benefit, but that money goes straight to the landlord) and living longterm on 70 a week is pure hell meaning even the worst paid job is an improvement.

    However the locals from the council estate often have kids and having kids (plus being able to share bills with a partner) massively increases the amount of benefits available and saves on utility bills, resulting in it simply not being worth it to do a low paid job.
     
  9. Corky42

    Corky42 Where's walle?

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    Are you seriously saying that child benefit pays people more than it costs to raise a child ?
    I mean you're talking about just over £20 per week max, i would like to see you even feed a child on that amount.

    I could go on for pages about how what you said is just a regurgitation of the BS excuses that politicians use to cover up their own ineptitudes but i feel it would turn into a rant, what you and the politicians claim is so full of holes that not only doesn't it hold any water, it collapse at the first sign of intelligent scrutiny.
     
  10. Risky

    Risky Well-Known Member

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    How high should the minimum wage go then and how do you expect small businesses to cope?
     
  11. Corky42

    Corky42 Where's walle?

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    So are you saying that everybody should work for peanuts just so small businesses can operate ? Isn't that the type of market/society that operates in places like India.
     
  12. Mephestic

    Mephestic New Member

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    I shouldn't have generalised like that - Its probably true for even british nationals that theres a great proportion which take the benefits system for a ride (possibly greater even). Such figures are really unlikely to ever be released due to the risk it poses however so its impossible to falsify one way or the other.

    The issue on immigration is I think the influx is too fast and too much. It should happen yes but when vast groups are allowed in and settle in one particular area (as they tend to it as it feels safer to be around their own) you create some prejudice from those who reside there already as their home town is flipped overnight into something thats unrecognisable. I have nothing against immigration - my family were one ourselves, but it needs to be a slow process to allow integration not one that is forced on communities causing culture clashes and resentment.

    The overall goal should be around becoming productive members of society; people should be allowed in and measured on this. If you find they have been unemployed for long periods then its clear they are a hindrance on society and should be deported. There needs to be stricter protocols as this country is tiny yet its population is growing fast. Theres half as many people in Canada yet they have already started to implement stricter controls as they know space/land is a valuable commodity which were just giving away at an incredible pace. This is causing the huge rises in affordable housing for everyone already here which then causes resentment towards outsider groups (as well as the issue with jobs becoming competitive).
     
  13. Corky42

    Corky42 Where's walle?

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    Not at all, we have the governments own figures.

    [​IMG]

    The fact that people think benefits fraud is such a large problem just goes to show what a good job the politicians have done in pushing that trope into the public consciousness.

    EDIT: If we go on more recent (2013-14) (PDF warning) government estimates benefit fraud is even lower at £1.2bn. I would provide updated details with regards to tax evasion & avoidance but it seem HMRC still hasn’t estimated how much potential tax was lost in the 2012-13 or 2013-14 financial years.
     
    Last edited: 2 Jan 2015
  14. Nexxo

    Nexxo Stopped treating this country as if it was his own

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    Works both ways, I'm afraid. The reason why immigrants cluster together is because they are not allowed to integrate with the locals --which is what many immigrants actually want to do.

    This is an interesting point. When Nigel Farrage proposed this, he was asked if the same rules should apply to the two million British immigrants living abroad. He avoided answering the question by saying that it was up to their host countries to decide. So: if British immigrants abroad cease being productive members of society abroad, should they be deported back to Britain?
     
  15. theshadow2001

    theshadow2001 [DELETE] means [DELETE]

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    Not hugely following this thread. But as a minor point, if I moved to a different country I would prefer to live in an area with people who share a common cultural background as myself. Regardless if the natives allowed it or not. The further the cultural gap the more this would apply. So moving to somewhere like the UK Australia America, living among the natives would be ok. But going somewhere like the middle east or an African country or Asia I'd certainly prefer to have a few of my own around.
     
  16. Anfield

    Anfield Well-Known Member

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    £20 a week max? You do know about things like free school meals, school uniform grants, money to heat your home in winter and so on?
    And no, I'm not suggesting that getting rid of all those benefits would fix anything.

    You also should never forget the insane financial punishment you get if you are alone, for example food is much much more expensive as the majority of good deals are on family size packages and worse, food that can go bad is often in far too big packages for singles, which for example means singles have to buy meat at the butcher rather than the supermarket.
    Plus there is the very big difference in cost of living due to couples being able to split utility bills.

    Worse, because wages are so low even if you get a low paid job, if you have kids you still get stuff like tax credits (which is really just benefits by another name), so go to work for what? So your benefits come out of a different Bank account?
    Singles without kids meanwhile get exactly zero pence from the government if they work for min wage.

    The point is that couples and families are treated differently than singles without kids and locals are more likely to fall into the couples and families category than immigrants (at least for the first couple years after arriving).
     
  17. Corky42

    Corky42 Where's walle?

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    So a child doesn't eat anything when not in school, or wear anything other than school uniform ?
    AFAIK i didn't claim you said getting rid of those benefits would fix anything. :confused:

    That's a very contentious point, in fact a 2010 article from the BBC suggests that, yes you are worse off being single but more importantly found that you're better off being single when it comes to the benefit system, contrary to your claim that the benefit system favors couples with families.

    So as you can see the picture is far from clear on who gains financially from being single or a couple with children.
     
  18. Nexxo

    Nexxo Stopped treating this country as if it was his own

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    The problem with personal anecdotes is that they are, well, anecdotal. I did move to a different country, and I integrated in the local community. Even married an Englishwoman. Just down the road from me live Asians, Central Europeans, Caribbeans, all just kind of getting on with their lives.

    @ Mephestic: Whatever problems Britain has, it is not immigration. On balance immigration contributes more to the economy than it takes out. And there is no way that you can plausibly argue that someone with foreign qualifications who had to come from abroad and support themselves until they find work (like myself), and who is likely to be less fluent in English, has an advantage in seeking employment in Britain over an English-speaking local with British qualifications who just has to pop down to the local jobcentre. If barely educated, barely English-speaking foreigners pose a serious competition to the locals in finding a job, those locals should be embarrassed, not angry.
     
    Last edited: 2 Jan 2015
  19. Risky

    Risky Well-Known Member

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    No, I didn't say reduce or abolish the minimum wage at all. I asked the question of how much higher to do think it should be so that the people that don't find it worthwhile to take jobs at the moment will do so.

    The current minimum wage rates is £6.50 p/h. With holiday pay (as is legally obliged) this becomes £7.33. The employer has to pay NI on pay over £153p/w so at the minimum wage that means anyone working more that 21 hours a week will cost them £8.34p/h for each additional hour.

    Oh so that's not enough and you want to put it up. How much? by 10%, 50%, 100%?

    Now this debate is always about Tesco or some other big "nasty" employer. But if you want a big increase in the minimum wage it affects people that a have rather less margin to cope with additional costs. That corner-store or cafe isn't a goldmine and the owner may well already end up earning less per hour of work that some of his employees. IF the wages go up and prices can't then he has to take a reduction in his income or try and cut costs, such as running with less staff, or perhaps using younger employees are the rates are lower under 21 and under 18.
     
  20. Risky

    Risky Well-Known Member

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    Please note that tax avoidance (as opposed to evasion means companies and individuals finding ways to reduce their tax within the law.

    If you take out an ISA, you're avoiding tax. If you earn cash and don't declare it, you're evading tax.
     
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