1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

peterson get death

Discussion in 'Serious' started by I'm_Not_A_Monster, 14 Dec 2004.

  1. I'm_Not_A_Monster

    I'm_Not_A_Monster Hey, eat this...

    Joined:
    22 Dec 2003
    Posts:
    2,480
    Likes Received:
    2
    but where do you draw the line? is one murder enough to justify killing them? 10? 100?

    does it matter who you kill? if i killed the president i'd surely get the death penalty, but a crack whore in compton, i'd get 25 years. who decides who is more important than the other?

    lets also go the reverse of my first question, what if i was killed for shoplifting clothes from a store? littering? (I'm afraid to give my current presidential admin. this idea, but:) Vagrancy (kill the homeless to reduce homelessness)?

    you might send your kid to their room if they're bad, but would you hack off a finger? i would not be able to type this if people could hack off things for bad behavior. disfigurement is ilegal in this country, but something more devastating is: state sanctioned murder.

    everybodies values are different, get Tipper Gore in a room with someone who beleives in the constitution, there'd be differences of opinion. nobodies values are more important than someone elses (W fooled america into electing him, does his opinion count more than mine?) and nobodies opinions are righter than anyone elses (ok, i'll admit Pol, Adolpf, Richard, Charlie, the KKK, and the good ol' boys running Abu Ghraib do have some wrong beleifs).

    the only "person" thats right to decide who dies and who lives is "god" (it's in quotes because "it's" existance/sex/name are only speculation) and according to you, feline, god will judge them eventually. and there is always the chance of a mistake, the the courts have killed an innocent person, then who are we to judge
     
  2. Feline

    Feline What's a Dremel?

    Joined:
    17 Dec 2004
    Posts:
    191
    Likes Received:
    0
    One murder is enough to me.

    It doesn't matter who you murder, what matters is that the murder was commited. I never said the justice system wasn't flawed, as it most certainly is. But I would treat the murderer of a crack whore just as severely as someone that murdered the president. They both murdered someone, they both had a total disregard for the other person's life. The victim never had a choice in the matter. Just because someone does something stupid and self-destructive (ie, smoking crack) doesn't, by any means, mean that they should get the death penalty. That's the difference, the fact that the crack whore is only hurting herself (although she still has a choice in the matter.) The murderer, on the other hand, isn't giving people the opportunity to live. He's taking their free will away, in a sense. But there has to be repercussions for their crime.

    First of all, unless you pose a potential threat to the lives of store personnel, they should never draw a weapon on you. Obviously a shoplifter is commiting a crime and knows full well there will be consequences. But he hasn't murdered anyone, and the only real damage he's inflicted is a financial loss to the store. But in none of your scenarios should the death penalty ever even be a consideration, that would be utterly ludicris. Now you're taking about eugenics (the so-called "cleansing" of society of "undesirables.") That goes well and beyond the point of this debate, as being homeless isn't a crime, and shoplifting and littering are usually pretty petty offenses. For instance, the store that I work at had numerous problems with homeless individuals. Not because they were homeless, but because they kept stealing from us and harrassing customers outside. We had no problem with them coming into the store, until we caught them stealing from us. They are no longer allowed on the property and will be arrested if they come back. But unless they come back to the store, shoot the night manager and take $20,000 out of the safe, of course they don't deserve the death penalty. Some time in jail perhaps, but not the death penalty. The punishment should fit the crime.

    Like I said above, the punishment should fit the crime. The more severe the crime is, the more severe the punishment. Murdering someone in cold blood (you can't very well murder someone nicely, now can you?) is the most foul thing someone can possibly do. There's no comparison to my 3-year-old daughter drawing on the wall with a crayon. You can't compare apples to oranges. Say for instance my daughter decides to drive drunk when she's 16 (God forbid, and assuming she doesn't kill anyone in the process): Do I think she should spend the night in jail? Hell yes! Because it will deter her from doing it again. And I'd take her car away from her as well (no matter how much anyone will deny it, you will turn into your parents after you have a child!)

    You're absolutely right about the first part. I wasn't trying to persuade anyone else, I was simply stating my personal belief on the subject as well as providing the reason that I believe what I believe. As for the second part, I'm going to abstain from addressing that directly so this thread stays on topic. But I will say that, no, your opinion isn't any less important than anyone else's. However, that also doesn't necessarily mean your's is right and everyone else's is wrong (that goes for me and everyone else here, as well.) This particular debate has a lot of variables and some very subjective elements to it. You don't have to agree with my political and moral beliefs, and I don't expect you to or really care if you do or not (I don't mean that in a negative way, just that everyone should base their beliefs on what they think is right, not what someone else tells them is right. I'm not telling you what to believe, I'm just stating my beliefs and the reasons behind them.) One of the worst perpetrators of non-objective thinking is the modern media. I rarely watch the news and rarely read the paper. And even then, it's just to see what's going on, not to get an opinion. Editors have the right to say what they want, but it's gotten to point that they overtly attempt to force their opinions on the population at large, and that's when it becomes wrong. Never listen to the media's opinion, they've all got some sort of agenda whether it's politcal or monetary or personal. And although I'm pretty conservative, I freely admit that this goes on on both sides of the fence.

    Whether you believe in God is of no consequence to me. It's not my job to preach or try to convert anyone, and I've got no interest in it. I do believe in God, and so I will obviously state my opinions with that in mind, but that's as far as it goes. The only time I get upset about it is when someone attacks me simply for having Christian beliefs (which has happened a lot lately, unfortunately. In your defense though, you've been pretty good about not attacking my beliefs, and I do appreciate that.) I believe that God already made the judgement call, as stated in Leviticus. He gave the right to judge criminals in a court system, and this was to determine whether the person was truly a criminal or falsely accused. That's why I stated that elsewhere in the Bible, God states that it is NOT up to the individual to pass judgement, but the justice system. We obviously don't agree on the death penalty issue, but we do happen to agree that the justice system is seriously flawed, and steps need to be put in place so that innocent people are not given the death penalty (or any other penalty for that matter.) One problem with the Bible is that it's often mis-quoted or paraphrased (and honestly, it's mostly by preachers!)

    My whole point in posting to this thread in the first place was because someone asked a question. I gave my response, and as I was taught in Debate Class in highschool, I stated my reasons for my beliefs. It was not, nor will it be, my intention to change anyone else's mind. Ultimately, that's their decision, and my only purpose was to provide my viewpoint on the subject so that others would have alternate information with which to make up their own mind.
     
  3. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

    Joined:
    23 Oct 2001
    Posts:
    34,653
    Likes Received:
    2,091
    Er... no they haven't. Things are not nearly as simple as that. But how far that justifies or excuses their decisions and actions is a whole other debate...

    Let's say that you (and I) made wiser choices.

    Yes, the murderer gets treated better by us than how he treated his victim. But thenagain, we're not like him, aren't we? As you were pointing out, we're better than that. As such, perhaps we do not have the same choices to treat people in the way that the murderer feels he has.

    The price of being the good guys, is that we have to be the good guys.


    Jesus believed in the possibility. Shouldn't you?
     
  4. I'm_Not_A_Monster

    I'm_Not_A_Monster Hey, eat this...

    Joined:
    22 Dec 2003
    Posts:
    2,480
    Likes Received:
    2
    once again, nexxo has my back.

    what if people have mental problems? should a retarded person who doesn't know what they are doing be punished the same as a "normal" person?

    on many occasions W has said that america is a leader, but we are one of the last civilized countries that still sponsor murder; we're in the same lot as North Korea, Libia (sp?), and saudi arabia.

    we should be leading these people into the light of humane treatment, not leading us back into the stone ages or torture and lack of compassion (Abu Ghraib), granted they didn't have chemical light stick suppositories in Camelot
     
  5. Feline

    Feline What's a Dremel?

    Joined:
    17 Dec 2004
    Posts:
    191
    Likes Received:
    0
    I beg to differ. It's that sort of mentality that people use as an excuse for leading crappy lives. "I was poor growing up" or "I was abused" or things like that. Yes, that sucks and it's horrible, but it's still up to you, the individual, to change that, to make the best out of your life. Everyone has baggage. I have baggage. My former stepfather used to beat us kids on a daily basis. That doesn't give me a right or excuse to go around murdering people and living a scummy life. I know people that grew up in the worst possible situations, and are now very well-off and lead good lives. Not because someone handed it to them, but because they worked for it and did it for themselves. And I know of people that had everything handed to them (Eric Harris and Dylan Kleibold come to mind), and still destroyed everything around them and wasted not only their lives, but the lives of twelve other people. At the time of Columbine, I lived only two miles from that school. Columbine is, for the most part, a very "well to do" school. Most of the kids had parents that made a lot of money, many of the kids (including both Harris and Kleibold) drove BMW's and Benz's. Their parents were trying to give them a good life and send them to a good school. But those two still wasted it. Their lives weren't hard, by any means. They had pretty much everything handed to them. That's an insult to people that have to work up from pretty much nothing. It's too easy to play the victim these days, and that's what these two did. It's a smack in the face to those that have to work for what they have. The point is that just because you came from a **** background, doesn't mean that it's okay to go around murdering people. Growing up in the ghetto doesn't give you a license to kill, and neither does growing up rich.

    No matter how much your life sucks, there is always a way to make it better. You may or may not have to work at it harder than some other people, but anything is possible if you really want it. My life isn't easy; I don't make as much as I did working for IBM, I don't get to see my daughter as much as I would like to, I don't have the money to buy a lot of the things that I want, I'm having a hard time getting another record deal. But I still try to make my life as good as I possibly can, and honestly, even though I fully qualify as "low income", life really doesn't suck that much. Why? Not because I've got tons of money or fame or any of that. It's because I don't let it suck ass. I find happiness in the few things that I do have, and the few friends and family that I do have around me.


    Maybe I should've said that we're all the same in the beginning. It's when we start using our free will and choice that we become different that other people. And there's nothing wrong with being different. If everyone were the same, life would be boring. Once someone decides to murder someone in cold blood, it's obvious that they have lower morals than others. I don't see how that doesn't make them worse than me or you.

    Your right, but at the same time, does being the good guys mean that we have to forgo our responsibility to keep our neighbors and children safe? Here's the thing: There's an argument floating around that it's more expensive to put someone to death than it is to keep them in prison for life. And it is...sort of. It's only more expensive if the criminal decides to appeal his death sentance and if he's using a public defender and not a personally-retained lawyer. But pretty much everyone that's thrown in prison tries to appeal their sentence. It's not specific to death-row inmates. The question is this: what if, after about ten appeals, a convicted murderer somehow manages to get his sentence thrown out and is released. Do you want him roaming the streets and out in public again? Even if he says he's "rehabilitated", are you really going to be able to trust him, deep down in your heart? Do you really want to find out the hard way if he had been telling the truth about his rehabilitation? I know I wouldn't.



    But Jesus also recognised that, until his return and God's judgement of the "lambs from the goats", there will always be someone, somewhere that doesn't have that same idea. Take, for example, September 11th: It took only a handful of men to murder over 3000 people (and not just Americans either.) It would be great if there were world peace, if everyone could just get along. Unfortunately, we'll never be able to convince 100% of the population of that. I really wish we could, believe me. I believe the possibility is there, but only after "judgement day", whatever someone believes that to be. I wish my daughter could grow up in a world without rapists and murderers, but there will always be people that could care less about me and her and everyone else, and won't care whether you live or die. I would like to be optimistic about it, but knowing that you can't convince everyone, it's kind of hard to be sometimes.
     
  6. I'm_Not_A_Monster

    I'm_Not_A_Monster Hey, eat this...

    Joined:
    22 Dec 2003
    Posts:
    2,480
    Likes Received:
    2
    you're a musician? what kind of music?

    after a Nth appeal, prisoners just don't get out of jail, and just because someone was found not guilty it does not mean they are guilty. you can't get out of jail just because you followed the advice of the poster with the kitten hanging on it (hang in there) you have to prove that you are not guilty.

    and i would trust with my lawnmower to someone that just got out for robbery, but i would still keep the recepit. it's insurance.
     
  7. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

    Joined:
    23 Oct 2001
    Posts:
    34,653
    Likes Received:
    2,091
    Oh, here we go... I'm sure you had a hard time. I had a hard life also, and I, too, had to work pretty hard to get where I am now. But as Denis Leary said: "Well join the ****ing club". You and I are lucky. You know why? Because we had our brains, our talents, our health, a large chunk of "Emotional Intelligence" and rather more luck than one would care to admit in escaping the harmful influences around us. A lot of how our lives turn out tends to be about luck/chance as much as the "wise" decisions we made because it seemed a good idea at the time. In my job I have heard the tragic life stories of hundreds of people much worse off than you or I (believe me, I could tell you stuff that makes your stomach twist). And although some of time their misery is attributable to head-shaking stupidity, some of the time with the outrageous circumstances they were born into it is blatantly obvious that they never stood a chance. Because misfortune, deprivation, neglect, abuse, can twist your ability to think and feel and act straight as much as a devastating bash to the frontal lobes of the brain.

    So I will never look at, say, a homeless person, a drug addict, a prostitute and just think they should sort themselves out. That is just facile reasoning about the human condition (and one religious people, I feel, are prone to because otherwise they would have to acknowledge that bad stuff can happen to good people for no reason at all). There but for the grace of God go we, dude...

    Material props aren't everything. How would we know what really went on behind those double garage doors and white picket fences, huh? Again, it is not that simple.

    Never said it did. But you said we are all given equal opportunities. I say we're not. Neither do we have equal chances, choices, opportunities or just plain luck to make something of our lives.

    :hehe: :hehe: :hehe: Tell that to the terminal cancer patient I saw last week. Nice guy. Young, picture of health all his life. Loving wife, young kids, steady job. Worked hard. He won't make next Christmas. I subscribe to your view that you have to work at life, but there are limits to what you can do. Life is not what you make it. Life is what you are able to make of the circumstances that were dealt to you.

    Again, I fully agree, but I understand that there are limits and circumstances beyond our control.

    I'm saying we are not born into the same circumstances, and that it is not just a matter of free will and choice. We do not have the same choices, for a start. We do not have the same luck. Or the same abilities, opportunities, chances, physical and mental health. We are not raised with the same morals, whether applied to us (important point here) or to others.

    But since we're on whether murderers are better or worse than us, I remember the story of Jesus being more accepting of one dying on the cross alongside of him.

    You're raising two points here: financian cost, and how much we can trust a conviceted murderer to be let loose again in society. Let's assume that we want to do the best thing by everybody; in that case financial cost is immaterial, right?

    So can we trust that person? Perhaps, perhaps not. I'm not saying we should let a certified serial murdering psychopath run around the neighbourhood with an icehockey mask and a nice set of Sabatier carving knives: that would be just stupid. But I'm not saying we should object to them being kept secure, for life, in relative comfort in prison (let's face it, if he is a psychopath, torture, deprivation, "punishment" won't mean dick to him anyway. He won't even feel it much, and the point would be totally lost on him). The point is, as long as he is watching DVDs and drawing pictures of bunnyrabbits with fangs in prison Art class, he isn't hurting anybody, right?

    As for the one-off, done-his-time murderer, Jesus would suggest that we accept the person for what they are, but treat them for how we'd like them to be (not the other way around). Not easy, I know. Pretty scary and risky, too. But thenagain Jesus also pointed out that being a Christian never was easy, or without risk. The price of being the good guy...

    Not being a religious person, or regular Bible reader, I don't know any of that. All I know is that Jesus did not wait with preaching until Judgement Day had passed so his audience would be a bit more receptive and less likely to nail him to a piece of wood. Instead he preached what he believed in during one of the most volatile and barbaric times in human history --at great personal cost. Being a Christian is a good way to live, but by no means a safe and easy way. It involves taking sometimes considerable risk for the principles you believe in. If you want to play safe, stop being a Christian. If you do want to be a Christian, accept that risk is involved. As I'm_Not_a_Monster says: you can always hang on to the receipt for insurance. :D
     
    Last edited: 1 Jan 2005
  8. Uncle Psychosis

    Uncle Psychosis Classically Trained

    Joined:
    27 Jul 2003
    Posts:
    1,694
    Likes Received:
    9
    Right, first of all the "why should we waste money on murderers" line is irrelevant. We should base our justice system on what is right, not on what is "cheapest". People who believe we should take the life of a human in order to save some dollars really need to take a good look at themselves.

    Secondly, if killing someone is wrong, then how can killing a killer be right?

    Thirdly, I would say that spending the rest of your life in Jail is pretty much guaranteed to be a worse punishment than being "put to sleep" by an injection.

    Sam
     
  9. Feline

    Feline What's a Dremel?

    Joined:
    17 Dec 2004
    Posts:
    191
    Likes Received:
    0
    If you want to pay to house murderers, that's your business. I, however, do not. It's got nothing to do with "what's cheapest", but why should I spend my money to house someone that murdered other people?

    I've already explained my beliefs and reasoning behind this, at least ten times, at great length.

    It suppose it depends on if you're religious or not, and what you believe happens to us after we die.

    I had no intention of "converting" anyone else, and I made this very obvious. I've made my statement, just like everyone else did. Unlike everyone else, though, because my beliefs are different, everyone decided to jump down my throat, even though I was simply trying to present another side to the argument.

    I done posting in this thread.
     
  10. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

    Joined:
    23 Oct 2001
    Posts:
    34,653
    Likes Received:
    2,091
    Spoken like a true Christian. :D

    Whoa there, no need to get churlish now. I like to think that nobody "jumped down your throat", and certainly no-one has accused you of trying to "convert" people. You stated (in summary):
    OK, you stated your opinion; some people challenged it. You stated your beliefs underpinning that opinion; so some people challenged those beliefs (that they are religious beliefs is circumstantial). That's all there is to it.
     
  11. Uncle Psychosis

    Uncle Psychosis Classically Trained

    Joined:
    27 Jul 2003
    Posts:
    1,694
    Likes Received:
    9
    But it's not *your* money. It's the Government's money. Once they've taxed you they can spend it how they wish. I'm not exactly chuffed that our Government are spending £16 billion on Eurofighter, or God only knows how many £billion bombing Iraq, or £million on the London Olympic bid, or whatever. The government will always find a way to spend money in a manner that some people don't like. You just have to deal with it.

    Frankly, I am quite impressed in how you can claim to be a Christian and at the same time advocate killing someone in order to save money.

    Incidently, if you read the thread you'll find plenty of pieces of evidence that support the fact that killing someone costs more than just keeping them in prison...

    Sam
     
  12. xen0morph

    xen0morph Bargain wine connoisseur

    Joined:
    30 Jun 2002
    Posts:
    2,925
    Likes Received:
    1
    I think that anyone who commits a crime should have the same thing done to them.

    I'm not a christian, anything but.

    Apart from the rapists. Who would want the job of raping the rapists?
     
  13. I'm_Not_A_Monster

    I'm_Not_A_Monster Hey, eat this...

    Joined:
    22 Dec 2003
    Posts:
    2,480
    Likes Received:
    2
    well, if the rapist is hot... :D

    even if you beleive that people who are "bad" go to hell and people that are "good" go to heaven, the criminals will still go to hell.

    prison isn't a get-out-of-hell-free-card
     
  14. I'm_Not_A_Monster

    I'm_Not_A_Monster Hey, eat this...

    Joined:
    22 Dec 2003
    Posts:
    2,480
    Likes Received:
    2
    Any man, in the right situation, is capable of murder. But not any man is capable of being a good camper. So, murder and camping are not as similar as you might think.
    - Jack Handey

    remember "deep thoughts" on SNL?
     
  15. Jumeira_Johnny

    Jumeira_Johnny 16032 - High plains drifter

    Joined:
    13 Nov 2004
    Posts:
    3,708
    Likes Received:
    144
    yeah, but i think you have family quote in your sig wrong.
     
  16. I'm_Not_A_Monster

    I'm_Not_A_Monster Hey, eat this...

    Joined:
    22 Dec 2003
    Posts:
    2,480
    Likes Received:
    2
    copied off a webpage, not my bad.

    what was it supposed to be?
     
  17. Jumeira_Johnny

    Jumeira_Johnny 16032 - High plains drifter

    Joined:
    13 Nov 2004
    Posts:
    3,708
    Likes Received:
    144
    I'm not really sure, but it's still funny. Jack Handey rocks.
    "If I was being executed by injection, I'd clean up my cell real neat. Then, when they came to get me, I'd say, "Injection? I thought you said inspection." They'd probably feel real bad and maybe I could get out of it." A classic.
     
  18. I'm_Not_A_Monster

    I'm_Not_A_Monster Hey, eat this...

    Joined:
    22 Dec 2003
    Posts:
    2,480
    Likes Received:
    2
    maybe thats all they need to do, apparently it's OK to kill someone to save a few bucks, maybe slobs deserve to die... :worried:
     
  19. TJK

    TJK What's a Dremel?

    Joined:
    21 Nov 2004
    Posts:
    276
    Likes Received:
    0
    I don't know if that is entirely true. I am a Christian, and it says in the Bible that capital punishment was instituted by God. "Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed;" (Genesis 9:6)

    I think that the death penalty should be used in all cases of murder...if i kill someone, i should be put to death. Texas does a wonderful job of this. And in the response to a mentally handicapped person - they should get life in prison at least...they still took a life
     
  20. TJK

    TJK What's a Dremel?

    Joined:
    21 Nov 2004
    Posts:
    276
    Likes Received:
    0
    I have a hard time responding to this statement because of the complex issues behind it.

    Why do we leave convicted, sentenced to death felons on death row for 15+ years, and then kill them? I can somewhat see the money issue only because I dont know what the reason to keep them alive would be. I'm not trying to challenge anyone, but am simply asking for a response.

    I am curious about this response...how can this be? I havent looked at the beginning of the thread, but could you go into a little more detail?
     

Share This Page