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Other Piracy

Discussion in 'Software' started by Zinfandel, 2 Aug 2010.

  1. ataraxis84

    ataraxis84 What's a Dremel?

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    Do I really need to repeat myself?


    Forget all the legal/moral BS. What I do (and suspect many more do) is 100% better for the industry. FACT, not up for debate. They get more money.

    As for why I do it that way, word of mouth/reviews etc aren't my opinion they are someone elses. Just because its from a developer that I have liked previously doesn't mean I'm going to like this one. The one exception to this is Starcraft 2, preordered that without any hesitation because I was lucky enough to be a beta tester for it, and knew exactly what I was buying - One of the best games ever made for a PC, and certainly the best strategy game ever made.

    It would just be really nice if this whole thread was left for civilized discussion and not arguing. Its clear that we all have different views on why/right/wrong legal/illegal/unlawful (see I have read the whole thing) but what this thread does is allow us all an oppertunity to voice opinions. Some of which have been developed over years of thought.

    ...It would be really nice if someone from the anti-camp would say how well thought out my points were in my original post but :(
     
  2. boiled_elephant

    boiled_elephant Merom Celeron 4 lyfe

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    Out of interest, on the all-legal model stuartpb and Pookey are advocating, how am I supposed to determine whether I like a game or not without buying it when there is no demo available? I still maintain that demos, trial versions, and the general test-drive principle are a fair expectation and that if you're willing to pay £35 for a game knowing only what subjective reviews can tell you about it, you have an abundance of cash and aren't in a position to judge the actions of people on thinner financial bases. I can't afford to buy every game that is reputed to be good when, in past experience, roughly half of them have turned out to be crap and not worth the money despite being recommended in reviews.

    edit -
    I understand that you don't want to advocate piracy, and if there were an ideal solution in place I wouldn't either, but in the current situation it's often my only option if I want to have games at all. I can't afford to buy them all and there's no other way to tell which ones are worth the money.
     
  3. ataraxis84

    ataraxis84 What's a Dremel?

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    whoah pookey, I'm not bashing anyone in the way you just crucified me. I will however repeat myself on another point.

    I don't keep the games I download. If I like it it is bought, If I don't then its is deleted.

    Under normal circumstances this will happen within a couple of hours, sometimes as long as a week (Suprise Suprise, but I actually run a business that demands more of my attention than I would like at times)

    And as for music, I'm not entirely sure how many times I can say this. I do not buy/pirate/download music

    I was mearly stating why others might. And on that subject, I think you missed the point of what if piracy wasn't there.....


    Sales in the music industry are supposed to be going down, and they are making less money as far as I'm aware. My point was in the absence of this mass piracy then they wouldn't be able to blame it for the downturn. They would have to look at why it goes down which I suspect in the absence of piracy it still would.

    I'll make this statment again for the benefit of all mankind. I use pirate games as a test, and can provide as many reciepts as you like (at least for steam anyway, as they are emailed) I spend thousands of pounds on games. I do not pirate music, and I do not condone or support or justify those that do. My points are just to point out what the music industry need to do to fix the situation



    And please pookey, could you go back and read my posts again, with a clear head because I supsect you haven't as most of your points against me have already been covered. I thiknk my first post was half way down page 18
     
    Last edited: 19 Aug 2010
  4. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead It's big, and it's clever.

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    You can't. Does this legitimise theft of that product though? You could always NOT buy it. It's only a game after all, and your life will continue pretty much as it did before without it. If no one bought it, and fed back to the developer that they did not because they couldn't demo it, I'm pretty sure there would be a demo available soon enough.

    So long as people DO buy games without a demo, they'll probably keep doing it though. That's no excuse to steal it. What you should be doing is educating people on how they can change the situation to everyone's advantage, both consumer, and developer. All you are doing at the moment is actually proliferating the existence of piracy.. no matter how noble YOUR intentions are, there are exponentially more people less noble who will just steal it.

    While that remains a fact, piracy can not be tolerated in the games industry.

    I agree the music delivery model employed by some publishers is archaic and unfair. You know what I do though? I don't buy it. How many times have I clicked in a link in iTunes or wherever only to see "Album Only".... well.. I could cry butthurt and then try to evangelise about the advantages of piracy... however, I choose to vote with my wallet and just not buy it.



    No.. just games.
     
  5. stuartpb

    stuartpb Modder

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    Word of mouth is my biggest decision maker, I have some gamer mates, and I trust them to give me a honest opinion. We all know what we like about games and what we don't, having played in clans etc. for years. I also have some looser gamer mates, who I could also trust to give me an informed opinion. Failing that, I would hit the game devs forums, see if there are any problems with the title, and then hit the gaming forums, you can often weed out the clangers easily enough by doing this.

    With reviews, if word of mouth isn't an option, I never choose to buy a game after having just read one review, I try to get a balanced share of opinions. Normally this works out pretty well.

    Then there's a nugget of common sense required too, to avoid being caught up in the hype of the latest and greatest.

    I still buy the odd game where it ends up collecting dust on my shelves, but that's part of being a consumer. I have bought many other things that seemed like a good idea at the time, but didn't see much daylight. To suggest that an unlawful act is the way to go to combat this is pretty reckless imo. There are ways in which you can ensure your money is well spent, but piracy isn't one in my opinion.

    In summary, doing you homework before you buy is a good way to try and overcome this, but you don't need to be pirating to do so. If it's about laziness then yes go and pirate, if it's about making an informed choice, do your homework!
     
  6. boiled_elephant

    boiled_elephant Merom Celeron 4 lyfe

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    There is an interesting conundrum raised by axis, above, however: the games industry does directly benefit from my piracy. If I can't pirate a game to try it, I almost never buy it; if I pirate a game and play it for any length of time, I make a point of buying it. In pragmatic gain/loss terms, you can't deny that this amounts to wholesome, unanimous good for the industry. From piracy.

    I'm not saying it applies to everyone, but that's certainly how it evens out for me.
     
  7. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead It's big, and it's clever.

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    But for every honest person like you, there is a horde of 14 year olds (and their parents who turn a blind eye) who will just pirate it. While the mechanism for "honest" people to "trial" games exists, it will be used for PURE piracy. FACT.

    You can't really argue with this without making yourself look like an idiot. YOU may be honest.. but is everyone?
     
  8. ataraxis84

    ataraxis84 What's a Dremel?

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    I have already used a brilliant example earlier but I'll use it again.

    Mount & Blade Warband, kept seeing it on steam, wondered what it would be like. I then decided to download (illicitly) the Warband version to test, spent about an hour playing and bought it.

    This was from a very small developer and there was no way I could have known what it would be like without doing what I did. And without doing that there was absolutely no way I was ever going to buy it. None of my firends had it (which by the way a good few of them now do, so thats even more money in as none of them had even heard of it before I raved about it) so I had no way other than what I did to see if I liked it.

    I'm sure if emailed them directly, and I'll be happy to do this if you want, they would probably thank me, and take no humberage whatsoever to what I've done.
     
  9. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead It's big, and it's clever.

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    I'm also sure they'd be interested in exactly HOW you obtained it so they can try to prevent other less honest people from "evaluating" it as well.


    While YOUR intentions may be as pure as the driven snow... that very same mechanism you used to honestly evaluate it WILL be used so people can just obtain the game for free, merely because they can, as the current culture is that anything digital is fair game for most people. Are you going to suggest that I am wrong here?
     
  10. boiled_elephant

    boiled_elephant Merom Celeron 4 lyfe

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    I agree completely that piracy per se is generally a bad thing. Overall it amounts to a loss. But I'm not trying to calculate the morality or legality of it as a hive phenomenon, I'm only concerned with it on a personal, individual level - for myself. As far as I can tell, given the previously outlined facts, piracy is in fact, in my individual case, morally neutral and economically healthy.

    I didn't contrive those conditions about buying and not buying just to suit this conclusion, either - that really is how it works for me. If I can't try something by demo or piracy first, I just don't buy it. But I always feel obliged to buy something after pirating it.

    Also, it's a small point, but please don't be so rude. You've been getting pretty brash and abusive and it's not really warranted or justified. I've tried to be decent and chilled in here, because it always makes for better dialogue. Apart from anything else, if piracy gives you that much of a moral outrage complex over other people, I dread to think what'll happen on the day you get into a discussion about abortion... (Protip: it will involve blood and carnage. Not unlike abortion, appropriately enough.)
     
  11. stuartpb

    stuartpb Modder

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    As an argument against try b4 u buy, can any of you guys name any other products at the same price point as games, where you get unlimited usage of said product, BEFORE you buy it. I have been sat here thinking and I can't think of one single thing.

    This tells me that it is not the norm, and gamer pirates are trying to justify their action with this "reason", when just about every other consumer out there has to make decisions on whether to purchase an item or not, very often before they even get the product out of the box.

    Why is it that pirates seem to fail to realise that gaming is not a right, nor is obtaining the latest and greatest games. The games we want are commercial products, with value attached to them. If you want to play the games, listen to the tunes, or watch the film, then pay the price. It's the real world.
     
  12. ataraxis84

    ataraxis84 What's a Dremel?

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    So I'm now dishonest then Pookey?

    I think its fair to say I've shown no dishonesty in anything I've said or done.

    And im no hurry to be quite as unpleasant as some.

    I make a few points based on my personal experiences/beliefs and those do carry some weight, as I am a businessman and have a very acute business acumen and would be happy to teach both the MPAA and the music industry how to combat piracy properly and make more money in the process.

    In all honesty Pookey, you call me a cheapskate because I like to spend my money wisely (this is how most rich people become rich - they don't waste money) when in reality I could probably bet (but not prove unfortunately) that I have spent a considerable amount more than you, or most of the people on this forum on games over the years as I have been playing games since many a moon ago, and have spent prolifically since that time. My average spending for the last 15-20 years is probably up at around £500-£1000 a year and is increasing recently as I have the ability to spend more, and also the ablility to test more.

    Don't treat me like some 12 year old child pirating games in his beadroom as I think its pretty clear from my grip on the English language and grammar, that its just not the case
     
  13. boiled_elephant

    boiled_elephant Merom Celeron 4 lyfe

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    I don't think I have a right to do what I do. I don't project rights or liberties onto my actions; I don't consider myself a role model putting forward my own framework of perfect moral conduct. To put it simply, I don't think what I'm doing is defensible, and I wouldn't expect a court to let me get away with it if it were brought to their attention.

    I'm speaking purely in pragmatic terms. Pragmatically, there is simply no negative attached to my actions, no loss: I do not harm anybody. Yes, I'm breaking the law. But I do it in a methodological way such that it is universally good in outcome. I'm not asking anyone to say that piracy is good, or legally acceptable, or that it is the ideal solution. I'm just inviting anyone to identify a moral negative in my actions, a tangible loss or damage caused.

    Oh, and axis, stop trolling Pookey.

    edit -
    also, it's a small point, but justifications or outrulings by analogy don't hold water, even though they're popular in these sorts of discussions. The fact that no other product in the game price range is sampled in this way has no logical bearing on whether or not games should be sampled in this way; it is coincidental.
     
  14. ataraxis84

    ataraxis84 What's a Dremel?

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    We (I'm talking about people like myself and boiled_elephant) are mearly telling you why we do things the way we do. I have absolutely zero interest in how other people buy their products, I am only interested in how I buy products.

    And the simple most undisputed fact is that if I didn't do things the way I do, my annual spend on games would more than half. FACT, not up for dispute, discussion or anything else, it is fact. So therefore what I do is not a bad thing, nor is it detrimental in anyway to the games industry
     
  15. boiled_elephant

    boiled_elephant Merom Celeron 4 lyfe

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    Translation: there was no point in submitting it to a message board, whose main purpose is discussion and dispute.
     
  16. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead It's big, and it's clever.

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    So that's OK then :) May long shall it continue.... now we just have to stop the massive majority from abusing the system. LOL



    Then I applaud your integrity. However, even you must see that it has to be stopped. Only in a world where everyone behaves as you do, will your ideals work. Unfortunately, this is not the case. Also.. why can't people just do as I do: If there is no demo.. just walk away and assume there's no demo because it's ****? Why feel obliged to hunt down a torrent? If a car dealership doesn't let me test drive a car, then it's pretty obvious the car is probably crap. I don't go on some counter-morality crusade and find a way to steal the car to test it? Even if I buy it eventually... I've still stolen it. Also, what if I steal it and decide NOT to buy it because it was indeed crap? Has that also justified my actions?


    I've not been rude to you. I said that it's gonna be very hard for you to offer a counter augment that doesn't make you look like an idiot, because the fact will always remain that no matter how honest YOU are, the same system that allowed you to get the game from free will allow others to do the same. As both you and I know, the massive majority of those will just be stealing the game. So while it may have been a good thing for you, and even debatable for the developer, the big picture is that most are just stealing it. You can't sustain current levels of piracy just because a minute amount of people are honest.

    Until you show me the thousands of pounds worth of receipts, I'm going to assume that you are. The reason for this is that I've listened to this argument for 20 years or more now, and it's always the same. Apparently, all these people who pirate games eventually pay for them. They always have, and apparently always will. The strange thing is, these "evaluative" copies seem to have also been for sale on car boot sales all over the country for over 20 years as well.

    This is nothing personal. I just feel no great need to believe you because I've heard it all before. If you are completely honest, then I apologise without hesitation. Besides, if you are honest, then just call me a dick and move on. No skin off your nose. I'm just sick of this argument, as it never changes. I've seen 2 generations of "gamers" come along, and they all pipe up with the same argument as if it's something they've just discovered. Well.. the reality is that this excuse has been used to defend piracy for the best part of a quarter of a century, and at no point has it been proven that it helps the game industry. It's at best a naive ideal you propose, and at worst a very badly conceived thought indeed.


    No matter if your name is Jesus Christ, and you are biologically hardwired to explode should you so much as tell a single white lie, the very mechanisms you yourself use to "evaluate" games ARE being used to pirate them in a way that DOES harm the computer games industry.

    Take all your ideals, ideas, and thoughts... and then please use them to ensure that developers hear your views, and act upon them by delivering playable demos for all content they deliver instead of bleating on about how piracy is good for the industry, as it's patently not.
     
    Last edited: 19 Aug 2010
  17. ataraxis84

    ataraxis84 What's a Dremel?

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    In all honesty, I'm not trying to troll anyone.

    I'm just trying to make a point.

    I don't like being crucified on a forum when I've done nothing to justify that sort of action, just made some valid points and discussed them to the best of my ability. And i'm certainly not going to accept being called a cheapskate as I am anything but.

    Its probably got to the point where the mods should lock up the thread as its gone from being a 'relatively' civil discussion tosomething else. I guess that was always going to happen on a topic as hotly debated as this.

    And on that note I bid you all farewell for now (well at least here)
     
  18. stuartpb

    stuartpb Modder

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    That's utter bollocks, games and any other digital media are still commercial products, whose sole existence is to bring profit to the publisher/distro/retailer. Why is it that games and other digital media are perceived to be above and beyond every other commercial product in the open market?
     
  19. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead It's big, and it's clever.

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    A theoretical debate about the pros and cons of this is one thing, but coming along and admitting that you freely break the law and then defending it with an ideology is something else. No matter what reasons YOU support piracy, the facts remain that others support it for less honourable reasons, and therefore it is bad, and should be stopped.


    Well.. there you go then, LOL

    Yeah... lock the thread because it's not going the way I wanted it too. How very mature.

    With the PC games industry in decline, this is NOT the time to "experiment" with supporting piracy. There are other, legal ways to sufficiently evaluate a game. If a developer chooses not to use them, that is not a reason for you to somehow circumvent the system and steal it... as if you have a RIGHT to be able to evaluate every game ever made, even if you have to steal it in order to do so.

    You do not.
     
  20. boiled_elephant

    boiled_elephant Merom Celeron 4 lyfe

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    I certainly agree with this. But you've taken me to be somehow prescriptive in my actions, or a defender of piracy at large: I'm not. I still think piracy should be tackled (though not with DRM, as discussed earlier in the thread). I don't, by my piracy, advocate other people to pirate.

    This is a concept that throws a lot of people, I've found. People take it for granted that everybody is innately prescriptive with their actions: that what they do, they would have others do. This isn't the case for me - I don't take it upon myself to worry about what others should be doing, I just do what I do as long as I know it's not harmful, as in this case it isn't.

    Basically, the ground lies thus: the way most people pirate is morally condemnable. The way I pirate is morally A-OK (since I only consume and don't aid availability or help sustain the infrastructures facilitating piracy by my participation). It seems counter-intuitive, but I'm a pragmatist, and ultimately only concerned with figuring out what I, personally, should or shouldn't do. And the way I conduct things, I see no reason for me not to pirate, provided I continue to operate on the rules I've imposed on myself so far. It's mutually beneficial for me and for developers.

    I wasn't saying that at all, they certainly should still be subject to all the same laws and controls. All I was pointing out was the logical fallacy - the suggestion that because products X and Y are treated in way A, product Z should also be treated in way A. It's not a given that that follows (though you could argue for them to be treated in way A by other means, and indeed have done fairly convincingly at various points in the thread).

    Arguments by comparison just irk me, they have no real relevance. Pookey, your comparisons with cars are to an extent unhelpful for the same reason. Ultimately, we can't magically simplify the issue of video game economics and piracy by analogizing it to other existing markets, products, and forms of theft, because it's not precisely the same. We have to just bite the bullet and discuss it as what it is, in its own original terms, even if that may make things longer and more cumbersome. Analogy-drawing just invites in a ton of inaccuracies and tangents and occasionally even confusion rather than clarity.
     
    Last edited: 19 Aug 2010

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