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Pope considers use of condoms justified to prevent STD

Discussion in 'Serious' started by AcidJiles, 20 Nov 2010.

  1. AcidJiles

    AcidJiles New Member

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    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11804398

    http://www.thestar.com/article/894235--pope-says-condoms-ok-to-use-in-some-cases#article

    "Benedict said that for male prostitutes — for whom contraception isn’t the central issue — condoms are not a moral solution. But he said they could be justified “in the intention of reducing the risk of infection.”"

    So let me get this straight, catholics are told to believe people should never have sex for fun and having sex without the aim being conception is immoral?

    I have never understood the pope's and catholic church's stance on condoms. Can someone explain the arguments for this stance that don't immediately sound immoral, ignorant and plain stupid or does that not exist?

    Thanks
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 21 Nov 2010
  2. supermonkey

    supermonkey Deal with it

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    That's not quite correct; there is nothing in the Catechism of the Catholic Church that prohibits having fun sex. The moral argument from the Catholic perspective is that sex provides fidelity and fecundity in marriage. In other words, it strengthens the bond between husband and wife and provides for the creation of offspring. There's no reason you can't have fun during sex, but they would prefer that you do it with your spouse.

    That said, there is a very important difference between doctrine and dogma. From the Catholic perspective, dogmatic laws are supposed to be the unquestioned rule of God. Doctrinal rules are more or less guidelines that the church recommends based on its understanding and interpretation of scripture. Catholics are under no absolute obligation to follow doctrinal rules, but they are encouraged to at least consider the Church's opinion and weigh it against their own.

    Having sex for fun - that is, having sex outside of marriage or with multiple partners - falls more in the doctrinal area of church teaching. Condom use is fully in the doctrinal arena, so Catholics are free disagree with the Pope use condoms if it makes them feel better. In the continuum of morality, the Catholic Church at least considers birth control a better option than abortion.

    To offer a real-world example of how it all works: I was the third child in the family, and my mother was worried about having to provide for any more kids. Also, she had me later in life and wasn't getting any younger. She talked about her concerns with her priest, and he advised her to get on birth control. Or, we can can consider the advice of the nuns in my parents' primary school: "God gave you a brain. Use it."
     
  3. AcidJiles

    AcidJiles New Member

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    Is birth control regarded differently to condoms then and if so how as they both prevent conception?

    How clear are the differences between dogmatic and doctrinal made especially to Catholics outside of Western Countries?
     
  4. talladega

    talladega I'm Squidward

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    Are you saying that for Catholics it would not be considered a sin to have sex for fun outside of marriage? Because I was sure it was.
     
  5. supermonkey

    supermonkey Deal with it

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    The basic Catholic tenet is that any form of contraception is immoral because it denies the possibility of procreation. However, there is no black and white answer. Hence, contraception is immoral, but it is less bad than abortion because the former denies the possibility of life while the latter is the destruction of life. If you're to have sex but don't want kids, then they'd rather you wear a condom or take the pill.

    The reason the Pope is being more lenient toward condoms, however, isn't because he's growing more accepting of kid-free sex. Contrary to the thread title, the Pope didn't condone the use of condoms only by male prostitutes, either. What the Pope was saying is that in the continuum of sexual morality, using condoms to prevent the spread of disease falls slightly better than using condoms to prevent conception. He just used male prostitutes as an example - an interesting example for a number of reasons, but that's another thread. In my opinion, it's just splitting hairs.

    I don't know. Really, it varies from person to person, church to church, even here in the west. If you're lucky, you'll get a teacher who has a thorough knowledge of religion in general, and won't just parrot the basic principles of Catholicism found on the office pamphlet.
     
  6. thehippoz

    thehippoz New Member

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    I think they brand you a shagger

    don't really see how that's going to help.. the people spreading hiv around aren't going to be practicing catholics anyways
     
  7. KayinBlack

    KayinBlack Currently Rebuilding

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    Pamphlet? The Catechism of the Roman Catholic Church (Vatican II) is the size and thickness of a paperback book. It's pretty exhaustive, available in as many languages as possible, and freely distributed to all Catholics. Not knowing what the Church believes is kinda difficult for a Catholic, they have to be willfully ignorant.
     
  8. Nexxo

    Nexxo Queue Jumper

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    Basically the Pope is saying: I'm not thrilled about it, but it is better than infecting someone with HIV. He is probably using male (to male) prostitutes as an example in the mistaken assumption that it is a lot easier to get infected by a man than a woman.

    Anyhow, from his arguments it is clear that he places it on a continuum of morality. He reasons that taking responsibility for one's sexual behaviour by protecting oneself and others from infection is at least a step towards responsible sexual behaviour, and thus might eventually lead to the next step of being less promiscuous in the first place.
     
  9. yodasarmpit

    yodasarmpit No longer the other Brett.

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    I was about to present a well reasoned, and thoroughly thought out response to this topic, and then I realised - I just don't care.
    • I don't care what an old man, in a pointy hat, say's.
    • I do care that people will choose to live their live based on what this man say's, I just don't understand it.
    • I don't care if he believes this is the moral high ground.
    • I do care if people die of Aids because they believe wearing a condom is wrong, I just don't understand it.

    I just don't care?
     
  10. Nexxo

    Nexxo Queue Jumper

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    Am I bothered though?...
     
  11. yodasarmpit

    yodasarmpit No longer the other Brett.

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    I don't know - are you? :)

    I think my point is, I'd like to think the words and actions of this man were irrelevant, however his words are regarded as gospel by a great many of the worlds population.
     
  12. TheBlackSwordsMan

    TheBlackSwordsMan Fellow of the Teelzebub Society

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    A condom is like a bulletproof vest in Detroit, it can save your life everyday but If you dont have one someday you'll be ****ed.

    Question for Ratsinger, did he ever I raised a child ? Oh no I forget, He give the job to his brother....
     
  13. Teelzebub

    Teelzebub Up yours GOD,Whats best served cold

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    Its a shame the pope's parents didn't use them.
     
  14. KayinBlack

    KayinBlack Currently Rebuilding

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    He's no John Paul II, I'll say that.
     
  15. Penfold101

    Penfold101 New Member

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    I beg for the day when religion disappears from our planet - it'll be such a nicer place...
     
  16. supermonkey

    supermonkey Deal with it

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    Apologies if I wasn't clear. I wasn't putting down the Catechism as a pamphlet. I was talking about some of lay-people that I've witnessed provide religious education. The advice and information they sometimes give isn't much more than you might find on a pamphlet sitting in the church office.

    I agree about the ignorance of many Catholics - and I use the word ignorant in the strict definition of the word, rather than the pejorative sense. More often than not ignorance is found in the so-called cradle Catholics - the ones born and raised in the church. In a way, it parallels other types of education. Many of us learn basic information about chemistry in school, but unless we pursue a career in science we never get much education beyond the chemical formula for table salt. In the same way, most cradle Catholics are introduced to basic concepts as children, but since they were born into the church they never take the opportunity to learn much more than Adam, Eve, and Noah; they never take the opportunity to learn why the church has certain beliefs.

    No, we'll just find another reason to justify bashing each other's head in. You use Mac!? You like that football team!?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 21 Nov 2010
  17. TheBlackSwordsMan

    TheBlackSwordsMan Fellow of the Teelzebub Society

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    LOL stop dreaming, even without religion its gonna to be the same damn 'free for all' Blue ball maybe worst. Religions are not bad, its stupid people who make them bad by saying crap who's not in the book. There is no way that 'Do not use Condom' is in the holy bible, there is not mention of the POPE or the Vatican or them damn religion Lobby.

    I Agree with Supermonkey
     
    Last edited: 21 Nov 2010
  18. AcidJiles

    AcidJiles New Member

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    Well then not having sex stops the possibility of procreation so any Catholics not having sex right now while in marriage are commiting a sin? So I also presume BJ and other sexual things are out of it aswell?
     
  19. TheBlackSwordsMan

    TheBlackSwordsMan Fellow of the Teelzebub Society

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    Do not put all catholics in the same basquet, please. Who really follow the holy book, Seriously?
     
  20. Penfold101

    Penfold101 New Member

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    Erm, isn't that the whole basis for christianity in the first place...? If you don't follow the Bible, what on earth are you following...?
     

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