From my point of view and my experiences, it was always fine for a lower class person to throw water ballons at us, shoot at us with BB guns, hurl abuse at us, try to run us over as we crossed the road and generally call us stuck up pricks and the like... that's fine. If i took that to the press they'd just go boo hoo. However, if I were to call a lower class person a common little oik or the like, and he took the story I would get hung drawn and quartered for it. "posh person swore at meh" yada yada yada... They saw us as fair game, and were always willing to push us, however the slightest hit of anyone fighting back was always too much for them and they were running back to their mothers house. Also, can't find the statistic, but im pretty sure that something like the top 1% of earners give more to the tax man that the bottom 20%
It's not hypothetical. It's real, albeit comparatively rare. It's not a case of whether you meet the dictionary criteria for each class - it's a case of whether people perceive you to be of a given class. And as some poster have indicated, they have suffered for being perceived as posh. You misunderstand 'discrimination'. Discrimination is when people are treated differently because, for one reason or another, they are viewed with prejudice. The impact of the discrimination shouldn't be the dominant factor; posh people may have more choices than some other groups who are also discriminated against, but that shouldn't excuse their unfair treatment. It's as simple as that. No-one is saying that discrimination of people perceived to be upper class is the most pressing issue facing our society, simply that it no more excusable than any other discrimination.
Yep, it is a sad state of affairs. And I'm pretty sure that stat is correct. It gets worse, too. 27% of the total income tax raised is from just that top 1%, and almost half of all income tax raised is from just the top 5%. (Always makes me wonder whether the left are naive or simply jealous - probably both - when they talk of raising the higher rate of income tax further; as though potentially driving the richest 5% abroad and losing 50% of tax receipts would be good for our country's finances)
Not to derail the topic, but that's an interesting argument. We hear the same thing over here: "If you raise taxes all the rich people will move." I guess we'll be trading our rich folks for yours, or will they all head to Monaco in a mass exodus of of Bentleys and matching Louis Vuitton luggage?
I'm pretty sure that, say, paying 50% tax on £1.000.000,-- annual income does not suck as much as paying 25% tax on a £16.000,-- annual income. And that is just the tax that is not written off, on the income that is declared (again: the wealthy have more choices). Seriously, cry me a river.
Lol, it could well be a direct trade Aren't your maximum rates 35% though? And even that's for quite big 6 figure salaries? Our 40% rate kicks in at just £37k (ish) and 50% kicks in at low 6 figures. So it is fairly uncompetitive here, compared to somewhere like America. I guess the other argument is that the higher the tax rate, the more stifled people will feel and thus they'll be less likely to increase their work load, investments etc in the future, thus harming the country's long-term potential. And it is somewhat on-topic I guess, since whilst it's clearly not persecution, higher tax rates at higher incomes are something that's specifically aimed at 'posh'/higher earning people. Humans make relative decisions (in general), so yes, it probably would suck a fair amount. And I'd question, why should they pay 50%? I mean, if there was (say) a 35% flat rate tax, then the rich would pay more in tax the more they earn. I've never understood the argument for higher % tax rates the higher the incomes. Why is (say) a 50% tax rate for people on 6 figures more 'fair' (LOL) than a flat rate income tax? And you're right - the wealthy have more choices. So the higher the tax rate, the more chance that they 'hide' some of their income (higher tax rates and higher tax revenues aren't positively correlated).
Because --sticking with the above example-- it is easier to live on £500.000,-- than on £8000,--. The price of bread is not relative; it's pretty absolute. Just how much money do you need to live in comfort and security for the rest of your life? Seriously? I'll just leave this here... Wealthy people complaining of discrimination is like us complaining that homeless people don't really accept us as one of their own. It sounds whiney, and frankly, rather narcissistic. But I guess that with a privileged lifestyle, that's an occupational hazard.
We all have stories, kiddo. It was racism with me. In secondary school a few teachers refused to grade my work because it was too good to have been done by a mixed-race kid from the estates --I must have cheated. I got the usual name calling on the streets. I once ended up homeless because as soon as I walked into the office to pick up the keys for my privately rented student flat (arranged over the phone, all papers signed for), they took one look at me and the flat had suddenly "become unavailable". The local Dutch version of the CAB admitted that it was blatant racism, but it was a private landlord, so what could they do? Except point me to a comfortable park bench. (The kicker was, when I visited the Carribean I was considered too White. ) Now I can't help but thinking that if I had been part of the wealthy upper classes, my parents would have bought me a nice student pad. Choices. Rich people have more.
"From each according to his ability, to each according to his need" as a basis for fiscal policy, seriously? I wasn't saying that people on £500k post-tax income p/a have it hard. I'm just pointing out that Humans make relative decisions; as in, a rich person would be just as likely to moan about a pay cut (or fall in profit) than a 'poor' person would. And that's not since rich people are 'bad' or greedy people or anything; it's simply basic Human behaviour. Just as you see football players on (say) £50k per week moaning about their salary and demanding more. Again, it's not since they are greedy people (not saying they're great people either, though ); it's just because they make relative decisions. If the players around them (of comparably skill levels, or whatever) are on more than £50k, they'll want more. Or if you had a group of 10 people and you given 9 of them £10 and one of them £500. Each of them are ahead of where they were, but the 9 would be unhappy (even though they gained money). So coming back from my tangent (!), people on higher incomes would/do think that high(er) tax rates suck - and that's not because they're greedy, it's just Human behaviour Yep, a fair point. Completely legal tax avoidance sums to a massive amount. But - whilst it sucks - it IMO goes as further evidence that too high tax rates will just cause the rich's accountants to 'tweak' things, which will ultimately lead to lower tax revenues. Source? In my experiences, the opposite holds true.
How about this then? Discriminating against someone because of their colour, sexuality, creed or sex is a major crime. So why should it not be based upon your class?
1. Because, although I believe it is wrong, I *do* also believe that it isn't as important as other forms of discrimination, and let's face it, we can't/shouldn't legislate for everything. 2. Because the problem is less prevalent than other forms of discrimination - sledgehammer cracking a nut. 3. Because 'posh' people like to discriminate against the working class, working class people like to discriminate against the upper classes, and middle class people like to discriminate against both. You'll spoil a lot of people's fun. 4. Because - and this is the real reason - class boundaries are very indistinct and nebulous; it would be nigh on impossible to draw up a meaningful law, and completely unenforceable in the event anyway. No laws are better than bad laws.
Yeah, you can't make legislation without clear definitions, and as cjmuk said, there are no clear distinctions, when does somebody become 'posh', is that to do with money, or how they act? Ridiculous to suggest making a law about it.
I've been on this forum a bit now, and Nexxo seems to be a good debater. But all I've seen from you in this thread is just jealousy. You seem jealous to the fact that because Upper Class people have more money (Not from where it's come from, Richard Branson has **** loads of money from lots of hard work, so has Alan Sugar), it's fair game, and if they complain it's just "cry me a river". Just because you've been discriminated in your life (Which is a bad thing yes), I would think it would make you a bit more open minded about discrimination tbh. I've had a few people call me posh and had people mock me because of my accent. And because I live within a close proximity to Liverpool, where my accent is different to the scouse accent. And as the scouse accent has been perceived by Media to be working class etc (Harry Enfield) I'm suddenly posh to them lol.
Who cares what the plebs think of me. Jeeves?.. another Bollinger, and be quick about it.. there's a good chap. Seriously. Being ridiculed by jealous people, when in reality, you have everything you need and no worries in your life. Well.. boo hoo. It's not like you're being ridiculed for being fat, ugly, black, Jewish... you're being ridiculed for being successful.. well.. that must be soooo tough. LOL.
I'm very open minded about discrimination. I know, for instance, the difference between some random name calling and natural human prejudice, and real, malicious discrimination that limits and damages people's lives. I know that we are all subject to other people's prejudice, for whatever reasons, and that my personal experiences with racism do not make me a special little flower. Life is unfair like that sometimes. If that meant that I had to work harder to counter the prejudice of a few of my teachers, then so be it. At least I had the brains, whereas I knew of learning disabled kids who did not. They got the cozy special needs bus to school; I had to cycle through rain and snow. But I knew that I would have the better chances and choices in life. I learned that wallowing in self-pity is unproductive. Prejudice and discrimination are a fact of humanity. Challenge it, but get on with it. The best revenge is a life lived well. And nobody is in as good a position to do that as the wealthy.
Is what I would say if I'd had the privelege to be born as awesome as Nexxxo. As always, summing up the debate eloquently.
