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Pregnant man tells Oprah: It's a miracle

Discussion in 'Serious' started by Cthippo, 3 Apr 2008.

  1. Scirocco

    Scirocco Boobs, I have them, you lose.

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    In that vein, I believe every child born is indeed a miracle. Don't think that's how the media is playing it though, which I think does some to cheapen it. Doesn't matter to me if he and his wife are a "regular hetero couple" or not. You've hit the nail on the head as far as raising a child, the love, stability and support. I'd be concerned on the effect of the media spotlight on the family and child more than anything to be honest. Take that from someone who has gotten death threats before due to some media exposure. But with the love and support, children are amazingly resilient.
     
  2. specofdust

    specofdust Banned

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    That poor kid....
     
  3. LAGMonkey

    LAGMonkey Group 7 error

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    Childbirth is no miracle. Its a wonderful thing, and is life changeing to the Nth degree, but no miracle.
     
  4. supermonkey

    supermonkey Deal with it

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    I really think this is one of those 'slow news day' stories that will raise a few eyebrows, then disappear among the normal 'news' when the movie star du jour gets drunk in public. I doubt the child will need to worry about media exposure, because this story will have been forgotten by next week.

    As far as the whole 'miracle' thing, just keep in mind that this is the Oprah crowd talking. The media loves to throw about such terms in order to grab attention, so don't take it as anything more than headline sensationalism. They have to compete with American Idol, after all, and the general public has a finite amount of attention span to give.

    -monkey
     
  5. Stuey

    Stuey You will be defenestrated!

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    It's possible. I sometimes do housework when my wife's not around. If she's not around, there's nobody around to complain to. If a husband complains and there's nobody around to hear it, does it still clasify as a complaint!

    I beg to differ. I've been browsing through a few histology and embryology books over the past few weeks for a project. How something that resembles THAT, can eventually look like a human baby, is quite extraordinary. The shear number of things that can go wrong but usually do not is amazing.
     
  6. loops

    loops What's a Dremel?

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    as a member of a family who suffers with 2 out of 3 daughters being unable to concieve I do think childbirth is a miracle... isnt it something like a third of pregnancies are not viable. Ive just personally found out at 20 that I havent the same issue as my 2 aunts which was highly likely and I can safely say I am eternally greatful for the fact that I am able to have children.And like stuey said the amount the human body both fetus and mother go through during pregnancy I do beg to differ.

    As for this being a mircle because hes a bloke I dont really think so. Yes he may feel like a man/ act like a man and be a man and is in all nessacarities a man without a penis ( i Consider being a man being more about attitude than genitals) However he still does have the ability to be a parent... womb/ ovaries/vagina, so I cant see how its a news story

    As for the bullying Ive seen kids be bullied over a lot less and kids with worse situations have no trouble. it depends on the confidence/ self worth of the child and how its parents bring it up/ family support/ friend support, just because it has an unorthadox upbringing does not nessacarily mean it will be bullied, yes there is an increase chance, but as I said, ive seen kids be horrifically bullied over a lot less and kids with similar or worse issues not be bothered.
     
  7. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    I class that as extremely painful.

    Thank you for your informed psychological opinion, y'all. Which is totally wrong on all counts. :rolleyes:

    There are about sixteen different factors which determine the gender and sexual identity of a human being. If they are all in sync (and usually they are), then you get a man or woman. If they are not, you get confusion and prejudice by unenlightened masses.

    OK, chromosomes first. There is a condition called Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome. In its Complete form, babies are born female even though they have a Y chromosome --this is because during fetal development the body simply refuses to acknowledge any testosterone banging about, and stubbornly continues to develop along a female template (we all start out female). They grow up as girls, feeling like girls, with female brains, even though they have undescended testes. There is no external way to tell the difference, so they are raised like girls. Only in puberty does the lack of ovaries (and womb) become obvious (because of absence of periods and other hormonal developments) and it is usually then that the condition is diagnosed. Such women are infertile and will need hormone replacement therapy to replace absent ovarian functions, but otherwise they are women.

    On to the brain. Yes, male and female brains are wired differently, and this has implications for both sexual identity and sexual orientation (largely, but not all in the hypothalamus). A prepoderance of testosterone during fetal development will cause the brain to wire male. This relationship is not straightforward however: the brain turns testosterone into androgen, and vice versa. So paradoxically, too much testosterone can result in a female brain and too much androgen in a male one. Why this happens is still poorly understood.

    On to socio-culture. Baby is born, parents peek at its genitals (let's face it, how else do you tell the difference at that stage), and go: "It's a boy/girl!" and its fate is sealed. Never mind what really goes on in the body or brain. From the cradle on, cultural gender role pressures abound. In some cultures these are very strong, in others more relaxed. In some cultures boys are more valued than girls. For males in the West the rules of gender identity are usually tighter: it is more acceptable for a girl to be a tomboy, then for a boy to be girly. Occasionally the only way men can find an outlet for sensual and emotional needs that women are allowed to freely express (e.g. vulnerability, sensitivity, love), is to assume a female psychological persona. Transvestism results.

    On to sex. Sexual orientation is linked to gender identity, but not dependent on it. They are different parts of the brain. Homosexuality is in fact remarkably common in the animal kingdom, and has evolutionary advantages. It is only most (but not all!) cultures that think that one and the other are inextricably related: that you can only be a man if you are attracted to women and vice-versa.

    People with gender issues meet as much prejudice, hostility and alienation as people with sexual orientation issues. You can be dismissive about transgendered people, but that is about as enlightened as gay-bashing.
     
  8. Major

    Major Guest

    That made me LOL in RL.

    And yeah, it's not a bloke, it's a woman, tits or no tits. Born a woman, your still a woman, even if they attach a cock to you.

    And about above, what is a man?

    Man = Born a boy, has a cock, is male
    Woman = Born a girl, has tits etc, is female.

    Woman who had her chest flattened and took steroids = Still woman.
     
  9. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    Uninformed prejudice + information and knowledge = still uninformed prejudice.
     
  10. SitraAchra

    SitraAchra Minimodder

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    Nexxo - I wasn't giving my psychological opinion, but my physiologic one. I know what Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome is. You're just picking mother nature's loop holes to prove a different point.

    How about we talk about Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia, Kleinfelters, and all the other syndromes with ambiguous genitalia. I realize a lot goes on between Wolffian and Mullerian ducts - however this was a "normal" female that chose to take androgens and become virilized.

    Thus, you can't introduce genetic variations into the argument when the argument is dealing with a normal pair of X's.
     
    Last edited: 4 Apr 2008
  11. SitraAchra

    SitraAchra Minimodder

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    Nexxo do you know the numbers on what percentage of transgendered people were sexually abused? I bet it's much higher than the average of the total population. Just curious - if not off-hand then that's cool.
    EDIT: i looked up some stats...and found the abuse rate much higher. [/off topic]

    I think this story draws people's ire more because this person decided to become male - phenotypically - but then in a way rescinded on that and is now pregnant. I'm all for people having the right to change gender, but more likely than not this kid is going to have psychologic issues growing up. Yes there is a chance the child will lead a normal life, there is a chance for everything. However the likely scenario is this kid will have severe issues due to the extreme circumstances of his/her parents.
     
    Last edited: 4 Apr 2008
  12. ChromeX

    ChromeX Minimodder

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    Then in your reading im sure you came across the myriad of conditions and diseases that DO cause things to go wrong. Just because you see it as a miracle doesnt make it so.

    ah trust good ol' nexxo to jump in with his random ******** proclaiming that he's right because he has a psychology degree and everyone elses opinion is wrong, and trust him to show us the primative ways of our thought processes. Thankfully, nexxo, we have your supreme enlightenment to draw from! Not once did any of us say we had, or were offering, a psychological opinion. But gave our opinion as is, this being a forum and all...
     
  13. Firehed

    Firehed Why not? I own a domain to match.

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    Yes.
     
  14. freedom810

    freedom810 Minimodder

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    I agree, and what makes a women? a box.
    Thats my opinion, but if they want to be known as the oppasite good for them.
    I really feel for that kid though.
     
  15. Stuey

    Stuey You will be defenestrated!

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    I think that we are all basing our comments on slightly varying definitions of "miracle." I for one don't really use or interpret it in a "godly doing" sort of way.

    How did this thread turn from a bizarre discussion to sarcastic and personal confrontations? Is Nexxo a bit condescending at times? Yes. But for the most part, his insight is welcome by most of us, and he has proved many times over that he knows what he's talking about. I disagree with his opinions from time to time, but have enough respect for him and the forum in general to offer my comments and rebuttals in a calm and civil manner.

    Sometimes Nexxo's words have to be taken into context. Obviously he has some experience with transgendered folk and the type of criticisms that they often face. Maybe he saw relations between comments here and those that have affected patients of his. Who knows. Nobody says that you have to agree with what he says, nor do you have to sit quietly if he takes your words out of context and draws invalid conclusions about them or you. Just c'mon, the sarcasm and "random ******** proclaiming" comment was a bit out of order.

    You don't have to agree with Nexxo, nor silently let misinterpretations go unopposed, but there's no reason for you to go and mock him.
     
  16. Amon

    Amon inch-perfect

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    Precisely what I had in mind. There's nothing to be discussed about the host's gender, which is completely irrelevant to the quality of parenting the child will be raised with. Unfortunately, not everyone is willing to make that disconnect.
     
  17. SitraAchra

    SitraAchra Minimodder

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    I think that having a father figure who gave birth to you is not irrelevant to the quality of parenting the child will be raised with. It doesn't mean the transgender figure is a bad person or an unfit parent.

    However, society is judgemental and this is an unfair burden for a kid to carry around with him in his/her formative years. Once you're an adult who is secure and knows something about life, it's a lot easier to come clean about how your biological mother is your father figure, your mother is not related, and your biological father is a sperm donor.

    I hope this person had to pass several psych evaluations before they were able to conceive a child. I know that several fertility clinics turned this couple down, and I can totally understand why. All things being equal, you want a set of parents that are male and female. I don't care if I come off as "unenlightened" - welcome to the real world where people ARE judgemental and DO stereotype.
    EDIT: Amon I'm not saying this directly at you but in general.
     
  18. Stuey

    Stuey You will be defenestrated!

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    Many of your assumptions that the child will be raised disfunctionally or develop some sort of emotional disorder is a possibility if and only if the parents disclose the transgender information to the child. If they are the least bit intelligent, they will attempt to hide this information from the child until he is mature enough to comprehend the situation. At that point, if they do not disclose this information to the child, it is possible that the child may never be aware of any of it.

    People hide similar information from children all the time regarding adoption and surrogate births. What the heck do lesbian couples tell their children about their origins? I don't think this child will have any more difficult a life than children from other "different" households.
     
  19. notatoad

    notatoad pretty fing wonderful

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    totally agree with this, except that homosexual couples don't feel the need to go on oprah to discuss their family decisions. i feel for the kid, because its parents are attention whores trying to grab a bit of tv coverage by having their child in the most unorthodox way possible. this family is only one small step above the people on springer.
     
  20. SitraAchra

    SitraAchra Minimodder

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    I think...there is absolutely no way the kid should be denied this information. Also - information about adoption and surrogate birth is not at all similar to the information that your FATHER...gave birth..to you...and is a WOMAN.

    I mean...there is some time in this kid's life that they will be made aware of what the deal is. I do agree the information should be witheld until the right age. God knows what age that is. This kid will not have a normal life though.
     

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