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Scratch Build – In Progress Project RabidCicada (Mineral Oil Computer) - 20th October 2010

Discussion in 'Project Logs' started by RabidCicada, 21 Oct 2010.

  1. Wicked_Sludge

    Wicked_Sludge My eyes! The goggles do nothing!

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    legoman is using a 317 gallon per hour eheim and his oil is only a few degrees above room temp IIRC. the diaphragm pump i posted is 3 gallons per minute, or 180 GPH. and thats the rating at 60 PSI, which i dont imagine youll be anywhere near...so your flow should be considerably higher. if worst comes to worst, get 2!

    keep in mine, ANY pump you buy can be submerged...mineral oil is non conductive :thumb: id imagine the performance loss in drag as oil seeps into the motor should be minimal with the relatively low-drag an armature produces (compared to a PC fan) and a high torque motor like youll find on any pump.

    i do agree the roller style pump would look sweet in there. maybe lit with red LEDS so it looks like a mechanical "heart" pumping "blood". unfortunately i think youll have a hard time finding a pump of that style that moves a significant amount of liquid.
     
  2. legoman666

    legoman666 Beat to fit, paint to match.

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    Looks good! You should PM a mod and ask for the log to be moved into the Worklog section. My oil usually hovers around 5-15C above ambient, depending on the load. (This is an educated guess, I don't have an ambient temperature sensor in my room.) Like you said, I have the Eheim pump and it works great.

    Take a look at some of the reviews on http://www.skinneelabs.com, you'll see that flow rate only matters up to a certain point and then you're just wasting money. The guys who run the site do really exhaustive job. http://skinneelabs.com/i7-blocks-2.html specifically has a very nice graph about halfway down the page that shows diminishing returns once you go past about 1.5GPM.

    Edit: According to my measurements, I am getting around 1.55GPM out of my eheim 1250 (listed as 5.3GPM). I have 2-3ft of tubing and 2 radiators in parallel. Works great. If you want to increase cooling capacity, I think you'd be better off spending more money on fans than on the pump.
     
    Last edited: 28 Oct 2010
  3. RabidCicada

    RabidCicada Member

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    Right.

    Talked with people from NorthernStar. The tech I talked to highly does not recommend this pump for continuous run use when I asked him specifically about continuous run use. It seems this pump would burn up over prolonged periods of use. The tech was very adamant that this would not be a good use case.

    I'm also getting anxious about being able to get something together so, I think I'm just going to go with an eheim since it is an *approved* solution to my problem:). I can look at changing to a different pump at a later time.

    It should be an easy transition because I'm keeping the pumping system isolated. I got some quick disconnects from Rob that look awesome for the case. I'll put up pics after I get home.

    I'm going to be putting together the tank next week as my weekend is full. After that I'll retake measurements for the metal cuts and do some work:). I have intended dimensions in the solidworks thing but we all know how the real world doesn't always agree.

    More thoughts and considerations on pumps coming in another post tonight...Gotta run for a comedy show right now.
     
  4. Nexxo

    Nexxo Queue Jumper

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    Diaphragm pumps are noisy. Seriously, just stick with an Eheim. They are powerful, quiet and reliable.

    Personally I would look at reclaimed Fluorinert. Fully inert and non-conductive (you don't have to worry about tubing, capacitors or sealing materials), low viscosity stuff. Unfortunately also very expensive, 1.7 times as heavy as water (in a tank the size of yours that is a consideration) and it evaporates at room temperature so you'd have to seal the tank. But it is awesome.

    I would make the tank as small as you can get away with. Less oil is less weight and pressure. I also notice no cooling array yet. Where are the radiators?
     
  5. RabidCicada

    RabidCicada Member

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    Thanks for the input Nexxo.

    I was getting the feeling that pretty much all PD pumps except VERY EXPENSIVE and the peristaltic were going to have noise issues.

    That and there were a lot of concerns with internal pump design for a PD pump (and getting information out of vendors has proved to be difficult):
    (1)Mineral oil trapped in casing and causing overheating.
    (2)Continuous Run design (none really available for cheap)
    (3)Internal component safety of pump while in mineral oil (chemical reactance). The NorthStar pump was made with santoprene and viton for the parts in contact with the pumped liquid...not for submerged pumping. The rest of the internal stuff may be reactive.
    (3)Internal component safety of pump while in mineral oil (mechanical reactance).

    Pump
    The eheim decision is now final. Probably go with an eheim 1260 or 1262.

    Cooling Array
    I was planning on getting the Magicool 9 fan radiator that Puget systems used but it seems they dont make that anymore (at least not listed on the website). I'll put in a call and see.
    I could set up a bank of gtx480s (I already have one). The plan was to mount the Radiator and attached fans off the side of the case using some of the scrap aluminum my mechanical guy has.

    Going to have two quick disconnects on the backside of the right large side panel. And I'll have the quick drain port on the frontside of the same right large side panel.

    Motherboard Tray
    We are also custom machining the motherboard tray from scrap aluminum. The Mobo tray will have the IO panel attached and will have space to mount the power supply.

    Case Generalities
    I understand the case is huge. I plan to put fun stuff inside. If it proves to be too insanely, arduously heavy, then I learn for V2 :).
     
  6. RabidCicada

    RabidCicada Member

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    Sealing the Polycarbonate with Method #2. (No clamps)

    Just wicking the Weld-on in from the side of the joint. (Unscientifically) it was over 3 times stronger than with clamps. I had to jump on it with my entire body to break the joint. Couldn't break it by hand.

    Method #1 with clamps was relatively easy to break by hands alone. I think the clamps alow less bonding agent to seal the joint.
     
  7. RabidCicada

    RabidCicada Member

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    Oh...

    And happy halloween

    [​IMG]
     
  8. Monkey Puzzle

    Monkey Puzzle New Member

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    Cool project - The extruded aluminium for the framework looks really good.

    Have a look at the MORA radiators. Or alternatively you could have several very large 140.3 radiators or similar running in parallel.
     
  9. RabidCicada

    RabidCicada Member

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    Cooling Array Design

    Originally I wanted to avoid putting anything through the polycarbonate. I wanted to keep everything modular and separated so that it would be easy to move to a new tank if there were problems. I'm also a software engineer so low coupling and high encapsulation seem like self justifying prospects.

    But, a couple things have worked against me. Since I couldn't get a hydraulic pump I don't know how much effective head pressure I will end up with...and I'll be using a large radiator. To combat this uncertainty, I plan to get the eheim 1262, and to use a shorter run of tubing to the radiator, by putting bulkheads through the side of the Tank :). There will be three bulkheads....2 for in/out oil to Rad. 1 for quickdrain.


    I'm looking at the right setup to create the least flow resistance while still being easy to disconnect for the radiator.

    I took a look at the Skinee labs Quick Disconnect Review and found out that they are not as bad as I've read about previously (thanks probably due to time and evolution of design).

    I decided the VL4N Extreme Flow quick disconnect would work to provide the least hassle and flow resistance while looking nice and industrial.

    I liked the bulkhead idea from legoman666 but:
    (1) They're made of PVC which has issues with Mineral Oil in general (I asked him over IM about how his are holding up, and apparently they are doing well; but we've all heard stories about PVC getting mushy).
    (2) I also like the full metal look.

    Looking at the options available, this struck me as a good configuration:
    • MO-RA3 Pro Rad with Feet to stand independant of case (no mounting = win) and elbow barbed connectors.
    • 2x Male VL4N Quick Disconnect (BSP 3/8" Threaded)
    • 2x Female VL4N Quick Disconnect (Compression Fitting)
    • 2x Double Male Threaded Bulkhead (BSP 3/8" )
    • Proper vitton Orings to replace the ones that come with the VL4N fittings.
    • 4x Female/Female Unions similar to this for allowing a barb to the pump tubing in the tank and for the Female-VL4N's 3/8" Male-threaded end.
    • Barb for Pump to Bulkhead tube connection.

    Had to Redesign the Support Beam in the Case:
    The problem with putting in bulkheads is that I want my internal frame to be able to lift out without having to mull around with annoying tubing etc. I also want as short a tubing run as I can reasonably get. To do this I will need to modify the bottom support beam design for the internal frame. I'm going to insert an arch into the support so that the frame literally arches overtop of the bulkhead location and I avoid having a problem.

    Original bottom beam:
    [​IMG]

    New design (in my awesome paintbrush skillz):
    Black line is support beam. Red dots are the builkheads.
    [​IMG]

    Summary:
    Decided on major design for cooling setup and system. Freestanding MO-RA3 with tubing running through bulkheads into case. Uses QuickDisconnects from case to Rad.

    The Quick Disconnect fittings would be in-line from Mo-RA3 Pro rad to Tank-Bulkhead.
    Pump is "perma-connected" to bulkhead through barb & female-female union (I can add another quick disconnect later if It proves to be annoying).
    I will have to modify the design of the bottom support beam of the internal frame to support bulkheads without having problems being removed from case.
     
    Last edited: 28 Nov 2010
  10. RabidCicada

    RabidCicada Member

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    Now that I've got the cooling array defined...someone help me choose between the eheim 1260 and 1262:). I can do a lot of math...but at the end of the day...I'd rather someone with experience actually running a mineral oil computer help me choose.

    I'm leaning towards the 1262 due it's performance curve (Image from Marine Depot) over the 1260. And if I do crazy **** it'll handle the pressure with plenty of flow. But....I'm wondering if the flow may be too high with the 1262.

    I've got a large Rad, quick-disconnects, and viscous mineral oil that will be pumped.
     
    Last edited: 5 Nov 2010
  11. legoman666

    legoman666 Beat to fit, paint to match.

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    Lookin good! From my experience, the Eheim 1250 is perfectly adequate for cooling 2 hd5850's and an i7 860. (Power draw from the wall with Furmark and Prime95 running is ~585W). If your setup is similar to mine with respect to power consumption and heat dissipation, anything more than a 1250 will just add more cooling capacity in case you decide to upgrade to more power hungry components.

    Do you have a drawing of how the radiators will be attached to the rest of the case?

    What kind of tubing will you be using? I like the Viton tubing I used, but the stuff I bought is really thin walled and flimsy. It doesn't stay round for long runs. There might be thicker stuff out there though. The teflon tubing is great for straight stuff, but otherwise requires a heat gun in order to be bendable. They're both about 8x more expensive that PVC :(
     
  12. RabidCicada

    RabidCicada Member

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    I'll probably still bump up the pump power because my plan is to run 2GTX480's or similar with Folding@home while I'm not using them to game. I know those things are like furnaces.

    No drawing of rad/case attachment because the Rad is self standing (Link) with the feet I'm getting. The only connection will be the tubes and quickdisconnects that run straight into the tank through the bulkhead.

    I was going to look at tubing next....done planning for today.

    Took all of yesterday after work to compare radiators, and industry knowledge on the MORA's and Xtreme Nove 1080, then decide on how I'm running stuff into the case itself. I decided I'd figure out mounting today...then I saw the MO-RA3 mentioned in a post from here.

    Example Pic from Watercool.de:
    [​IMG]

    I was suddenly MUCH happier. No mounting...more decoupling...and it doesn't look bad at all with the fan shrouds etc attached. I SIR, WIN.

    Clearly I will be getting the raw steel version because I read they can provide that color.
     
    Last edited: 5 Nov 2010
  13. RabidCicada

    RabidCicada Member

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    Radiator
    It turns out that performancePCs, watercool.de's MO-RA carrier in the US, doesn't have the plain metal version....So I'm going to have to order from watercool.de straight up. Was going to try to avoid overseas shipping.

    Build in General
    Things should start moving along faster here in terms of actual physical building. Now that I've determined the bulkhead placement I can drill my polycarbonate and then bond it together. Had to wait until I figured out everything that was going to pass through the polycarbonate before putting it together.

    After that I need to remeasure the internals etc so that I can cut the extruded aluminum (internal frame) to fit. I had ideal numbers for the solidworks model but real numbers always differ a little. When I cut the extruded aluminum it should all be put together almost instantaneously because it only involves tightening bolts all over the place :).

    Randomness
    HardOCP has an interesting mod on their forums. I like that he is really custom cutting a lot. I know I'm more of an "integrator" than an actual custom modder and I knew that coming into the case...but I am custom cutting the polycarbonate and extruded aluminum...And I think thats good for a first timer:).

    I sent out some sponsor letters recently...hopefully someone will want to have their gear show up in my to-be-awesome case.

    I'm considering stealing legomanns led lit feet. I like the look of those a lot and they look so simple to make. The only logistics issue is how to feed them power, because I'm trying to keep everything unified (and generally inside the tank). I'm going to need two AC inputs anyway for the eheim and for the power supply.

    I'm certainly going to figure out a lid and the feet after I get the computer itself operational. That way I can get some gratification and momentum to continue:).

    Oh..and my desk from martinAndZeigler shipped out yesterday. It should be here wednesday of next week!
     
  14. Yaka

    Yaka Well-Known Member

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    are you sure it wasnt this thread?:p also dunno if you have decided on QDC or not but bundymania on hardocp forums swears by these ones which i am thinking of using when i convert to wc, might be useful if you are using external rads
     
    Last edited: 7 Nov 2010
  15. RabidCicada

    RabidCicada Member

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    Case Stuff
    Trying to re-engineer the Bulkhead+QuickDisconnect solution. I don't want it to be too bulky. Rob and me were looking at possibly just tapping a bulkhead solution (exactly what legoman666 did) with female BSP 3/8 so I don't have to use female-female unions (as is the current plan). I would still use metal bulkheads though. Rob's got the equipment to tap metal bulkheads...

    We also considered flange fittings....Basically a flat disc mount with female BSP 3/8 but it requires mounting into the polycarbonate with 4 additional bolts...not a fan. I'd like the least number of penetrations through the case. I'd really like to stick with just normal bulkheads so I only have 3 penetrations through the case.

    New Gfx Card
    I now feel obligated to get the GTX 580 as it is what the 480 should have been. And they are cheaper than the $600 I paid for each GTX8800 when they came out >.<
     
  16. DeadP1xels

    DeadP1xels Music Enthusiast

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    Awesome project !

    Good luck when it comes to sealing all the corners it will be a pain in the ass i expect :)
     
  17. sixfootsideburns

    sixfootsideburns modeteer

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    Weld-on and most other acrylic cements recommend not using clamps, but just tying your rig together with string (or similar) so it doesn't move, and if you do use clamps to use as little torque as possible.

    The reasoning is exactly like you guess, to much pressure doesn't allow for enough capillary effect to take place and you don't enough bonding agent in the seam. Many of these bonding agents are actually solvent bonds (not sure about Weld-on #3 but I believe it is) and your two materials are being fused together.

    If your at all curious about types of bonds here is a decent website that I found after a quick search
    http://machinedesign.com/BDE/FASTENING/bdefj1/bdefj1_5.html


    If you do not provide enough surface area for the weld-on to make contact then the only areas that are being fused together are the edges, which means your stress concentrations are going to be on a smaller area, and then boom... easily broken joints.

    Lengthy explanation for a relatively simple concept but I hope it helps :thumb:
     
    Last edited: 12 Nov 2010
  18. RabidCicada

    RabidCicada Member

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    More Parts Ordered--Bulkhead solution in development

    Parts Ordered:
    Just ordered a large amount of the remaining parts:
    MO-RA3 Radiator
    Standing Feet
    2 Fan shrouds

    eheim 1262 water pump.

    Bulkhead Solution:
    Were going to use the double male bulkhead from before.
    But were going to get large nuts, thickness-wise. Then were going to tap them for 3/8 BSP and they will act as couplings from the male bulkhead to the Quick Disconnect fittings or to barbs.

    Still deciding if the quick disconnects will be inline in the tube or directly mounted to the bulkhead adapter we're making.
     
    Last edited: 28 Nov 2010
  19. RabidCicada

    RabidCicada Member

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    New Toys and Bulkhead solution Figured Out

    Radiator and Pump
    Well, My MO-RA3 radiator and Eheim 1262 (900GPH) pump showed up:):
    [​IMG]

    I've got 2 fan shrouds for the Radiator, and the feet because I thought that would look nice:).

    New Desk
    My desk showed up and got put together. It is huge...and perfect.
    [​IMG]

    Bulkhead Solution
    So were getting the double male bulkhead like stated multiple times above.
    Then I'm getting socket weld fittings here and tapping them for 3/8 BSP with a TAP bit that I'm buying also.

    Instead of creating the Trapezoidal shape for the bottom bar of the internal frame we're going to just moved the bottom bar up enough to let the bulkheads remain under the bar. This is to make sure the internal frame can be removed without having to undo the bulkheads and or tubing.
     
  20. Wicked_Sludge

    Wicked_Sludge My eyes! The goggles do nothing!

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    pics no workey?
     

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