Cooling Question regarding water cooling setup

Discussion in 'Hardware' started by Garegaupa, 23 Sep 2009.

  1. Garegaupa

    Garegaupa What's a Dremel?

    Joined:
    11 Dec 2007
    Posts:
    11
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hello!

    I'm considering building a new PC at the moment, and in that regard I'm strongly considering jumping onto the water cooling bandwagon. As I have no first-hand experience with water cooling other than what I have read here on this forum and elsewhere on the Internet, I thought I'd run my ideas by you cooling experts on this forum to get your opinions. :)

    If I decide to build a new computer, it will be based on the Asus P6T Deluxe V2 motherboard, Intel Core i7 920 (which is, incidentally, to be overclocked as far as it's able to get :cooldude:) and a ATI Radeon HD 4890 (and possibly a CrossFire setup later). I'm also considering the new HD 5850 cards. My intent is to water cool the CPU, the graphics adapter and the motherboard (north- and southbridge, VRM and MOSFETs).

    Here is my preliminary shopping list:

    And now for my questions:

    1. When working with a setup like this, I find it easy to become blind to one's own errors. So if anyone should spot any faults with this setup (incompatible components, things that I don't need, things that should be added etc.) I would be very pleased to hear it.

    2. My original budget was for NOK 5,000.00 (approximately $860.00, €580.00 and £525.00 depending on your preference :D). With this setup I'm well above budget, more specifically at around NOK 6,500.00 ($1,120.00, €760.00 or £680.00) including Norwegian VAT. So, any suggestions for components that I could use instead and that are (almost) of the same quality as the ones I've chosen presently, it would be much appreciated. I can live with some small budget breaks, and I would definitely prefer to keep the general setup of my loop if at all possible, but when needs must... :)

    3. As you can see, I've listed 10 mm (3/8") hose. Should I go with 13 mm (1/2") instead, or doesn't it make too much of a difference with this setup?

    4. From what I can figure out, I think the pump I've chosen should be strong enough to achieve a reasonable flow rate in this loop, even if I later add a second graphics card. Are there any objections to this conclusion?

    5. Again, from what I can figure out, the radiator and fans should be able to dissipate more than enough heat for this setup, as well as a future CrossFire setup. Any objections to this?

    6. As you can see from the list above, I've picked components from a wide range of web shops. Ideally I would buy everything from only one or two places to save on shipping costs. So if anyone has any tips regarding web shops that have all or most of these components in stock, I would be happy to hear about them. This obviously also applies to suggestions for replacement components that are more readily available and would enable me to consolidate my purchases further. (Note: A web shop has to be able to ship to Norway to be of any interest to me.)
    That's all the questions I'm able to think of as of yet, but I'm sure more will emerge soon enough. Other comments and suggestions are of course welcome! :)

    Thanks in advance for any help!
     
    Last edited: 29 Sep 2009
  2. M7ck

    M7ck Ⓜod Ⓜaster

    Joined:
    28 Mar 2009
    Posts:
    3,600
    Likes Received:
    167
    The most noticable thing i would consider changing is your rad, I would look at using at least two as you are watercooling everything as well as overclocking "as far as it will go".
     
  3. Garegaupa

    Garegaupa What's a Dremel?

    Joined:
    11 Dec 2007
    Posts:
    11
    Likes Received:
    0
    Do you really think it will be that bad? I tried to do some calculations on this. The i7 920 has a TDP of 130 W. The TDP for a single HD 4890 is 190 W. I haven't been able to figure out the numbers for the motherboard, but if we say 70 W at least I don't think I should be underestimating anything?

    Anyway, added together that gives us 390 W. From the data I've been able to find, it seems to me that a 360 radiator should be able to dissipate around 500 W with fans similar to the ones I've picked. That should give me 110 W of headroom for overclocking.

    I'm also open for the fact that there may be some errors in my calculations, so if anyone has any objections to my numbers, feel free to correct me! :)

    EDIT: Hmm... Now that I look at it, it seems that if I add a second graphics adapter, things may become a bit dodgy... Perhaps I have to consider using more radiators after all...
     
    Last edited: 23 Sep 2009
  4. Garegaupa

    Garegaupa What's a Dremel?

    Joined:
    11 Dec 2007
    Posts:
    11
    Likes Received:
    0
    VadimWolf, the more I think about your suggestion, the more I'm starting to think that I might actually need more radiators if I want some room for future expansion. When I'm looking at the case I'm planning to use (the Corsair Obsidian 800D) I'm thinking that I could easily fit one 360 radiator and one 120 radiator. It does add more complexity and restriction to the loop, but perhaps this is the way to go to stay on the safe side...

    What do you think?
     
  5. H2O

    H2O Burnt Acrylic - Mmmmmm

    Joined:
    1 Aug 2009
    Posts:
    245
    Likes Received:
    6
    How flexible are you on the case? The Silverstone TJ07 and the DangerDen Tower 26 can both house 4x120mm radiators with no problems. I especially like the look of the TJ07 because the radiator is out of view, in the bottom of the base.

    Some cost cutting measures:
    1) The X58 NB/SB/Vregs really do not require watercooling, so I would not immediately buy waterblocks for them, especially if you are on a budget. Wait a few months, and if your temps are getting too hot, then you can add them.

    2) The DDC is a very good pump, but it is overpriced. If you can live without the ability to change the tops, the CPX-Pro has basically the same performance, and is much cheaper.
    http://www.performance-pcs.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=24272
     
    Last edited: 24 Sep 2009
  6. Garegaupa

    Garegaupa What's a Dremel?

    Joined:
    11 Dec 2007
    Posts:
    11
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'm quite flexible on just about any part of this setup. :D Thank you for your suggestions, I'll definitely look into them!
     
  7. Burnout21

    Burnout21 Is the daddy!

    Joined:
    9 Sep 2005
    Posts:
    8,614
    Likes Received:
    197
    I am just glad you done some homework on the topic before posting, usually we get 'how can i poor water in my machine and it cool stuff? :lol:



    As mentioned, the motherboard block aren't needed, your going to have airflow across the board anyway, plus if this is your first attempt at water cooling then there will be less hassle in getting all the air out of the loop.

    seriously people under esimate just how annoying it is to remove that one last bubble!
     
  8. Krikkit

    Krikkit All glory to the hypnotoad! Super Moderator

    Joined:
    21 Jan 2003
    Posts:
    23,615
    Likes Received:
    454
    Even the most ambitious WC blocks for mobo's don't cover all the hot bits anyway, it's better just to rig a 120mm fan or something in there and cool it with that imo.
     
  9. Fisher.

    Fisher. partially impartial

    Joined:
    21 Jan 2009
    Posts:
    1,159
    Likes Received:
    129
    Slightly different suggestion:

    Why not go with two loops? You're already talking about possibly upgrading the GPU before you've even bought a block for the card you have now. I would suggest getting everything except for the GPU block and having that in one loop. Not only will this make changing graphics cards easier in the long run, but you're also separating the largest producer of heat from the rest of your components, meaning you should be able to get away with a 2x120/140 rad.

    This is how I've decided to run mine, and I couldn't be happier with that decision. The best part is that if (and when) you change graphics cards, you have much less work to go through when it comes to draining and refilling.

    Also, I will stand by Performance-PCs until the day I die. I've spent well over $2k through them over the years, and have never had an issue that wasn't taken care of immediately. Excellent service, and you will find pretty much anything you'll need there besides Aquatuning products. Unfortunately, that's pretty much the norm on any US-based site.

    Happy hunting! :thumb:
     
  10. H2O

    H2O Burnt Acrylic - Mmmmmm

    Joined:
    1 Aug 2009
    Posts:
    245
    Likes Received:
    6
    Good suggestion, but a 4x120mm rad is fine for 2 GPUs and the CPU. However, if he decided to add the NB/SB/Vregs to the loop, I would put those on a separate loop with a 1x120mm.
     
    Last edited: 26 Sep 2009
  11. Garegaupa

    Garegaupa What's a Dremel?

    Joined:
    11 Dec 2007
    Posts:
    11
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thank you, everybody, for your thoughts and suggestions so far! :thumb: They are really appreciated!

    As for the necessity (or, rather, the lack thereof) of water cooling the motherboard, I'm sure you are all correct that the passive cooling on the board, perhaps aided by an extra fan, would be enough. The reason that I'm considering adding those to the loop has more to do with the fact that I'd like to build a totally water cooled PC, and because I like a challenge. :D

    (Well, obviously, if it were to be totally water cooled, I suppose I would have to add the RAM, the hard drives and the PSU to the water loop as well - but I'm sure you get the idea... :p)

    Also, the idea regarding two separate loops is also interesting. It seems I'll definitely have to sit down and re-think a few things after reading all your suggestions - which is just what I hoped would be the result of posting this in the first place. Thanks again, and please feel free to add your ideas to the list - anything and everything will be given serious consideration (as long as it doesn't make me bankrupt or get me thrown in jail :D)!
     
  12. Garegaupa

    Garegaupa What's a Dremel?

    Joined:
    11 Dec 2007
    Posts:
    11
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thanks! :D I like to do as much research as possible before jumping into something that's new to me.
     
  13. Garegaupa

    Garegaupa What's a Dremel?

    Joined:
    11 Dec 2007
    Posts:
    11
    Likes Received:
    0
    Okay, I've pretty much decided to go with H2O's advice and use the SilverStone TJ07B-W case and a 480 radiator (maybe the ThermoChill PA120.4). And although I really like the idea of two loops and can definitely see the advantages of such a setup, I think I'll stay with a single loop at the moment due mainly to budgetary reasons.

    (I've also changed to another pump and different fans following suggestions on another forum.)

    However, I'm trying to find out if a 480 radiator will be enough to cool my original setup (including the motherboard components) and still allow for a good bit of overclocking. I've been searching the Internet trying to find some answers, but I haven't found anything conclusive yet - the information that I've found covers the entire spectrum from claiming that I'd be able to cool my entire system with a single 240 radiator to stating that I should need at least one 360 radiator AND one 480 radiator just to keep below the point of critical meltdown... Not all that helpful, in other words. :D

    Do any of you distinguished bit-tech'ers know of any place where I could find reliable data on how much heat a given radiator can be expected to dissipate when combined with fans that deliver a certain CFM of air? I've been using Google like crazy for a couple of days, but I haven't really found anything useful in this regard...
     
    Last edited: 29 Sep 2009
  14. H2O

    H2O Burnt Acrylic - Mmmmmm

    Joined:
    1 Aug 2009
    Posts:
    245
    Likes Received:
    6
    There used to be a really good site (Martin's Liquid Lab) that had great reviews on radiators, pumps, etc... However, I believe they shut down and sold the domain name.

    Fortunately, I found an archive of the site (Aug. 4, 2008).

    GTX480 review: http://web.archive.org/web/20080731202656/www.martinsliquidlab.com/HWlabs480GTX-Review.html

    Full Site: http://web.archive.org/web/20080804232201/http://www.martinsliquidlab.com/

    4x120 should be fine, for your setup. If you go Xfire, then it might get a little dicey (except with the new HD5xx, since they run much cooler). If it becomes a problem, you can always move the NB/SB to a separate loop with a 1x120mm radiator.

    Good choice on the case! I'm planning on a TJ07 build my self. If you have not seen www.murdermod.com, check it out, as they have some great TJ07 replacement parts and awesome sleeving kits!
     
    Last edited: 29 Sep 2009
  15. Garegaupa

    Garegaupa What's a Dremel?

    Joined:
    11 Dec 2007
    Posts:
    11
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thank you very much for your help, H2O! Things are starting to fall into place now, I think - even though it seems that I'll wind up going a tad above my initial budget. But, you can't have you cake and eat it too, I suppose... :p

    I do have some more questions that have popped up recently, and that I haven't been able to figure out completely to my satisfaction by using Google or searching this or other forums:

    1. Is it recommended to use thread seal tape when screwing the fittings into place in the water blocks, radiators and so on, or do you just screw them straight in there without any further ado?

    2. For the coolant, is it enough to use distilled water with some common automotive anti-freeze added to the mix, or are there more specialized additives that I should rather use?

    3. Will the Swiftech MCP355 12V DC pump be a good match for the aquaero control unit, or do I need to use an Aquastream pump to get the most of it?
    I really appreciate all the help I've been getting here so far! I'd rather not wind up having forgotten some basic (but important) detail when I click the "Purchase" button at some web shop... :D
     
  16. Garegaupa

    Garegaupa What's a Dremel?

    Joined:
    11 Dec 2007
    Posts:
    11
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hello again!

    I know I'm resurrecting a rather old thread here, but I thought I might as well show those of you who might be interested how this little project of mine turned out.

    I did make some changes in the setup from what I had indicated in my original post. First of all, I went back to the Obsidian 800D after much consideration. I really liked the Silverstone TJ07, but for various reasons I kept coming back to the 800D. That also meant going back to a 3x120 mm radiator, but I also chose to put a 1x140 mm in there for good measure. I also got an Apogee XT for my CPU instead of the GTZ, and the 120 mm fans were replaced by Panaflo fans.

    But enough talk so far, here are the pictures:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    (Now, before anyone beats me to it, let me just say that I'm painfully aware of the ugly, gray wire going diagonally down in the front of the cabinet interior. That's the USB connection for the Aquaero, and it's only just long enough to reach the motherboard. I'll get a longer one and hide it away, I promise... :blush:)

    Here are the specifications:

    Processor: Intel Core i7 920 (currently running at 4 GHz)
    Motherboard: Asus P6T Deluxe V2
    Memory: 12 GB of DDR3 RAM
    Hard drives: 2 x 80 GB Intel X25-M SSD's in RAID 0 and 2 x 1.0 TB Samsung Spinpoint F1's in RAID 1
    Graphics: HIS Radeon HD5870 (currently running at 900/1300 MHz)

    This is the water loop and its components, in the order in which they are connected:

    Reservoir (XSPC Acrylic Dual 5.25” reservoir) --> pump (Swiftech MCP355) --> 1x140 radiator (Black ICE Radiator GT Stealth 140) --> CPU (Swiftech Apogee XT) --> graphics (EK Water Blocks EK-FC5870 Acetal) --> 3x120 radiator (Thermochill PA120.3) --> MOSFET 1 (MIPS ASUS Rampage 2 / P6T Deluxe Mosfet 1 POM) --> chipset (MIPS ASUS P6T Deluxe V2 / Palm OC Dual-Chip POM) --> MOSFET 2 (MIPS ASUS P6T Deluxe / Palm OC Mosfet 2) --> reservoir

    The coolant is 90% distilled water and 10% automotive antifreeze.

    Here is a picture of the pump setup as well:

    [​IMG]

    The pump mounts directly to the reservoir - you can see the "topless" pump, the impeller and one of the pump attachment screws in the middle right of the picture. The inlet port is at the upper right, and the outlet port at the middle left. The box between the reservoir and the outlet is the Aquaero flow meter, attached directly to the reservoir with a male-male G1/4 fitting. As you can see, it's a tight fit with the inlet fitting...

    All of this is monitored by an Aquaero unit with six temperature sensors (1x140 radiator in-/outlet, 3x120 radiator in-/outlet, reservoir inlet and case air temperature) and a flowmeter (at the pump outlet).

    This setup works like a charm so far. Even with a fair bit of overclocking I've never seen the three 120 mm Panaflo 120x38mm Ultra High Speed fans go above 70% RPM, even with heavy gaming and an above-average room temperature. When the room temperature is low and the computer is lightly loaded the 120 mm's often don't run at all, the 140mm radiator (whose fan runs continuously) is enough.

    The flow is relatively low, as might be expected with such a setup: The Aquaero reports just over 60 liters per hour. At the present moment the water temperature at the tank is 26,5 degrees. The 3x120 is at the moment dissipating around 0.5°C (with the fans running at 36% RPM), and the 1x140 around 1.0°C (in fact, considering the difference between the tank temperature and the 3x120 outlet temperature the 3x120 is probably dissipating more than this - I suppose this is due to some residual heat affecting the outlet temperature probe).

    The installation was mostly very straightforward. The 3x120 radiator fits effortlessly in the top of the case, obviously. I also found a very nice spot for the 1x140 in the bottom of the case, where it fits like a glove. The only component I had any trouble with was in fact the reservoir, which wouldn't fit due to the metal fins between the 5.25" bays - they were just a little bit too wide, and I had to bend them back to be able to install the reservoir. Other than that, I encountered little to no trouble (at least considering this is the first time ever that I've ever been tangling with PC watercooling :dremel:).

    Lastly, the air flow: I decided to have the three 120 mm fans in the top suck air in, for two reasons: To supply the radiator with cool(ish) air from outside the case, and to create an overpressure inside the case. So now I have one 140 mm fan blowing air in (the one in the bottom, below the 1x140 radiator) and one blowing it out (the one in the rear), one living its own life blowing air across the hard drive bays, and the three 120 mm's blowing in. This seems to work well enough.

    So, all in all, I'm very happy! Thanks again for all the help! :D

    (Disclaimer: Just to let you know, a large portion of this post is copied from a similar post I made on the Corsair support forums due to a sudden and violent outbreak of laziness... :p)
     
  17. M7ck

    M7ck Ⓜod Ⓜaster

    Joined:
    28 Mar 2009
    Posts:
    3,600
    Likes Received:
    167
    Looking good mate, I love that case, im glad you went with it.
     
  18. Garegaupa

    Garegaupa What's a Dremel?

    Joined:
    11 Dec 2007
    Posts:
    11
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thanks! :) Yes, I'm very happy with the Obsidian - apart from the trouble with the reservoir I have only good things to say about the case so far.
     
  19. MarkNorton1

    MarkNorton1 What's a Dremel?

    Joined:
    25 Feb 2010
    Posts:
    21
    Likes Received:
    0
    Looks like a nice setup, Ive been thinking of diving into the watercooling area and some of your componants are on my list so i had a question or 2 for anyone with the knowledge.

    I have a HAF 932, its a big old boy but I believe will only take a 2x120 rad in the top with another 1x120 at the bottom, dont really want to mod the case but can anyone confirm this? There is a 2x140 BlackIce that looks really good but am unsure if the fitting would suit? Any ideas on this either?

    I think for what i want to do at the moment I was just going to settle for a BlackICE model Rad of some description just to cool the CPU which is just a 6600 at the moment until I decide to jump to the i7, so what ever I get I want it to be fairly compatible, the drive bay res always sounded like a good idea to me, there is one I believe that takes 2 pumps? is that the one in your setup, I think it sits underneath? Just later on, once I get rid of my 2 8800GTX's and settle for a single GPU, I will want to cool that as well and not sure if a single GPU and CPU is suitable on 1 loop?

    Also Im getting all confused with Barbs/compresion things and whats best and whats not? I was going to go with compresion fitting, 1/2" I believe? but again correct me if im wrong or going down the wrong path?

    Hope some or all of this makes sense, probably missed a load of vital info but will give what i can, been reading the forums and site for years, just never posted!

    Many thanks in advance.
     
  20. Garegaupa

    Garegaupa What's a Dremel?

    Joined:
    11 Dec 2007
    Posts:
    11
    Likes Received:
    0
    The drive bay reservoir that I'm using has the pump sitting underneath the water tank, yes. I have the one that's designed for a single pump, but there is another variant that can take two. As for the one loop vs. two loops debate I don't have too much experience. I'm using one loop for CPU, GPU and motherboard, and the performance (in my view) is more than satisfactory. Sure, the flow is not high and the temperatures could probably be lower, but I'm overclocking both CPU and GPU quite a bit without any problems whatsoever. A dual loop would help both the flow and the temperatures, obviously, but I decided against it due to cost and loop messiness (if that's a word... :p) issues.

    As for the fittings, I went with the compression fittings simply because I didn't want to use cable ties or anything similar to ensure that the hoses stay in place, as I've seen some places that you are recommended to use for barb fittings. I also like the looks of the compression fittings. However, in my opinion it all boils down to personal preference.
     

Share This Page