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Racial Hatred Abounds

Discussion in 'Serious' started by LennyRhys, 4 May 2019.

  1. LennyRhys

    LennyRhys Oink!

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    Bit of a downer, but this is a serious matter which is why I'm posting it here. Some people may (and probably will) find the content offensive, but I have to post it for the sake of transparency.

    Yesterday morning I had a Messenger conversation with a long-time (10+ years) Steam friend who is a European currently living in London. He started talking openly about his dislike of "pakis" and, naturally, I challenged this squarely, pointing out that all people are the same, regardless of their ethnicity. I tried to reason with him, but that proved to be fruitless:

    "They [Pakistanis and Indians] are brown filth, subhuman rats. They should all be burned alive."

    And if that's not bad enough, he applauded the NZ massacre, claiming that "no human lives were lost, only animals. High five to the guy."

    I duly reported the conversation to Facebook, but I'm wondering if there's more that I can or should do. The thing is, I've "known" this guy for several years and I know that he's an avid gun fanatic and owns guns on his home turf where gun laws are a lot more lax than here in the UK. He shoots animals for fun, and he's already openly stated that he considers some people to be animals of the lowest order.

    You know what they say... the recipe is there, so what's to stop him from being the next sociopath that kills a bunch of innocent people because of the burning hatred in his heart?

    As an aside, I really wish Facebook had a tougher policy on this matter. He posted stuff about the NZ massacre on his Facebook wall, and he received a 24hr ban. IMO, social media sites should automatically perma-ban any account that even hints at racial hatred.
     
  2. liratheal

    liratheal Sharing is Caring

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    It's complex.

    I was reading recently about someone who advises parents and family of radicalised people and how best to handle them - it was long winded and not something I'm smart enough to distill, but it was an interesting read! http://girds.org/staff/daniel-koehler that was the guy (edit).

    I agree that ethnic hatred is absurd and not to be tolerated, but moderating it on any site the size of Facebook is a challenge that simply doesn't have a simple solution. I was recently made aware about Burma and it's use of Facebook as a news site owing to the free data when buying certain mobile contracts. But facebook didn't have the language specialists necessary to properly police the Burmese language posts. So it was rife with hate speech and racial intolerance spouted by people in power.

    Facebook has a lot of hardware and technical skill, but there's no way they'll ever police hate speech as effectively as normal people would like. It'll either be too much, and catch a lot of bystanders, or as ineffective as it is now. That said I did see they banned a few people across all their platforms recently because of hate speech.

    As for what you can do when you encounter that kind of radicalised hate speech? As far as I'm concerned all anyone has the responsibility to do is report it to the appropriate people and refuse to tolerate it. As far as I can tell, you need a lot of training and experience to handle that kind of thing properly.
     
    Last edited: 4 May 2019
  3. edzieba

    edzieba Virtual Realist

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    That's verging on the point (if not past it, if he has made any sort of link between "X should kill all Y" and his own ownership of firearms) where it makes sense to contact the authorities of whatever jurisdiction he resides in rather than just a website host. Depending on those authorities they may not do anything, but having the information entered in an official manner either means a flag up to whoever oversees radical monitoring that they should be keeping an eye on them, or at worst another datapoint to the pile of "we had a warning and did nothing, maybe we should be taking these sorts of things seriously".

    ::EDIT:: the longer-term generalised solution would be to treat radicalisation as less of a criminal issue and more of a mental health issue. Those vulnerable to radicalisation are vulnerable almost regardless of the actual ideology they end up indoctrinated by, determined almost entirely by majority exposure. Identifying those with high risk factors (e.g. some but not all of: lack of education, lack of critical analysis skills, recent mental health crises and/or bereavements, and more controversially associations with locales and possibly persons common to other occurrences of radicalisation) could be used to target interventions beforehand when those risk factors increase (e.g. at poijt of sectioning under the mental health act, as an extreme example). This must be in addition to rather than an alternative to analysing and dealing with the sources of radical ideologies in the first place (e.g. foreign policy).
     
    Last edited: 4 May 2019
  4. GeorgeStorm

    GeorgeStorm Aggressive PC Builder

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    I was about to say, depending on what he said I would argue that's something you should report to an actual authority rather than basically a forum mod.
     
  5. cjmUK

    cjmUK Old git.

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    I'd not report it to any authorities unless you have evidence that he intends to act on his bigotry; chances are he's just an Internet ****wad.

    [​IMG]
     
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  6. maple

    maple Member

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    @ OP

    I just wanted to commend you for your actions. You could have easily have brushed it under the carpet as he is a friend you've known for over 10 years however you've done the right thing; speaking for justice. Because we should always be for justice whether it be against us or even a family or friend as wrong is wrong no matter who does it.

    Unfortunately these views not only exist they are promoted by people in positions of power. Critical thinking is thrown out of the window and a cattle like mentality is prevalent among the average bigot.
     
  7. Vault-Tec

    Vault-Tec Green Plastic Watering Can

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    This seems quite a common theme for some Europeans. Whenever football is played out there there's plenty of racism. Monkey chants etc.

    I've never been racist. That would be impossible being I come from an area predominantly black. I have black family members. I do, however, like racist jokes. Not because they are racist just for the sake of it but because they are funny. So not the more personalised jokes.

    Some people think I am racist. To be racist you need to hate. None here, I just like jokes.

    I've never really had any ill feeling toward Indian people. I've got a few Indian chums and they're awesome. I have at times felt disheartened by muslims, but then I'm not a fan of standard religions. I have my beliefs, all I can do is hope they are real.

    When I was 13 my friends and I went to the cinema in Streatham. We were robbed at knife point by a load of black teenagers from Brixton. I have to say, my attitude changed somewhat. I didn't hate all black people, but all of a sudden now I see a threat I never saw before. Which stems back to me saying that deep down I am not racist. Before that I saw every one as equal, that caused me issues.

    However, in 1999 I met the best friend I have ever had. I seriously mean that. He was black, and all we did was laugh all day. There were no limits where I worked. There was an Iranian guy who is also a lifetime friend, and the place was just pure jokes from 9am until 7pm. When Shahnam (the Iranian guy) used to arrive we'd run over and check his bags to make sure he wasn't carrying any bombs. When you asked Colin if he wanted a coffee and how he wanted it he would say "You dare say black, mother f***er). I loved him like he was family. His sister (who was also black obviously) used to send him racist jokes. And we would cry with laughter all day.

    That completely changed my attitude and fears. Especially given how much I have been screwed over by all types throughout my life. Tragically Colin had undiagnosed Schizophrenia and took his own life a few years later. I still miss the **** out of him to this day :(

    My take overall? there will never be an end to racism. Mostly because the fundamental problems come from people being viewed as "Different". All the time you do that? yeah, you're going to have problems. The only way it will ever stop is when we look around us and we don't see any difference at all. Will that ever happen? crap, I doubt it.

    Even my Indian friend was telling me how outright racist his father was toward black people. He took a black friend home once, and his father basically threw him out whilst cussing in his native tongue.

    So it's not just white people either, and again it goes back to people viewing others as different, and others seeing themselves as different.

    As we slowly become less racist the problems are still there. For example, removing white people from blockbuster movies and replacing them with black people does not solve the problem. All it does is make others feel alienated. The same problem exists now with feminism. They don't want equal, they want it their way.

    Will this ever be fixed in my lifetime? I highly doubt it. It may in a few generations but yeah, not any time soon. Eastern Europe are not used to seeing people of colour. They are very backward, and would need to get used to that on a daily basis which I can't see happening either.
     
  8. Gareth Halfacree

    Gareth Halfacree WIIGII! Staff Administrator Super Moderator Moderator

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    [CITATION NEEDED]

    It's interesting that you, who is definitely not racist, would see putting non-white people in films that have previously been predominantly if not wholly white (hello, Fisher Stevens donning brownface and a funny accent for Short Circuit 2! Not problematical at all!) as 'removing white people.' Personally, I see it as including non-white people.

    EDIT:
    Let me put it another way. You're white, right? You've spent your entire life watching films where People Who Look Like You are the heroes. Now, People Who Look Different are the heroes and you feel alienated because they Don't Look Like You.

    But what about people who aren't white? They've spent their entire lives watching films where People Who Look Like Them aren't represented at all, and the heroes are People Who Look Different. Hell, if they are represented it's probably as the villain, and maybe even by an actor who Looks Different but is wearing makeup and doing a silly voice (hello, Mickey Rooney in Breakfast At Tiffany's! Velly velly funny!)

    Now, suddenly, there are heroes - a minority, but still - who Look Like Them. How do you think that feels? How do you think that feels to a kid, who now has a Star Wars character who Looks Like Them?

    To the white dudes - it's always dudes, let's be honest - who feel 'alienated' because one character out of a cast of a hundred Doesn't Look Like Them: how do you still not understand the importance of representation? You've spent your entire life being represented in media, and all it takes is one black actor to be cast in your favourite franchise and you're pouting.

    FIGURE. IT. OUT.

    Here endeth the rant. Tip your wait staff.
     
    Last edited: 7 Nov 2019
  9. Vault-Tec

    Vault-Tec Green Plastic Watering Can

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    It's difficult for me to have these conversations, because most of the time what makes sense to me doesn't make sense to others.

    The problem as I see it is that we are not including black people and making it mixed. We are remaking movies with a black star in place. Extremes, Gareth. We like to go from one to the other. What I mean is, that instead of remaking movies with black people as the stars to appease black people it would be better to make kickass films with black stars in (anything with Samuel Jackson is exceptional) rather than trying to replace white people.

    As I said, equality. Like true, people equality. Not just tokens...

    The problem with the world now is that it is so passive aggressive. Like, I grew up with "Might is right" basically. I didn't agree with it at all, but now we've completely gone the other way. Don't be angry at anything, don't you dare be aggressive.. Yet everything now is very liberally passive aggressive. Being forced to think and feel doesn't work either. That's just as bad as "might is right!".

    From the introduction of the internet people have been about as aggressive as they can, without causing any physical harm. I've been banned from more forums than I care to remember by some guy throwing his weight around. Control... That is the thing these days. "I won't beat you up I will just shape, mould and control you through my passive aggression!"

    Just because people think racism is going away does not mean it is. Just because the news and the TV and the papers are not racist any more doesn't mean it isn't there. All you need to do is pop along to a news website with a comment section and you will see that sweeping it under the carpet does not make it go away. For that you need to change how people think and feel, and good luck with that. It's there or it isn't. Hate, intent. If it's there? you can't just wave a liberal wand and expect it to vanish.

    I could sit here and say the world is better these days because kids no longer beat each other up. We've made all of that stop. Great, eh? well no, now they just murder each other instead over nothing but a dirty look or a glance in the wrong direction. Again, extremes. That's what humanity does so well.
     
  10. Vault-Tec

    Vault-Tec Green Plastic Watering Can

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    I'm white AFAIK. What I mean is I never did return the DNA kit my ex wife bought us a few years ago. Am I white? I guess so. Do I care? no, no not really. I just see myself as equal to others. Not better, not inferior, not superior, just the same. And that goes down to my very core. I have black family, love them to bits. I have gay cousins, love them equally. I think my heritage goes back to Scotland, but like I said I would need a DNA test to find out exactly who I am. But, I don't really care Gareth which is why I never bothered.

    I'm not saying that I don't want black people as the heroes. I just think it's daft to remake a movie with a black guy in place of the white guy. What message does that send across? more passive aggression IMO. If I was black that wouldn't make me happy, unless of course I viewed myself as better than white people and "hah have some pwnage" etc.

    Who you are talking to? like I said, just me. I bleed like everyone else, I cry like everyone else when I am sad and I laugh and breathe oxygen. I also see women as complete equals, always have and always will and have never EVER stood by and watch a man hit a woman. Most likely because I was raised by one after my dad died, but mostly because I just don't view any one as different or abnormal. Which is probably why most of my friends are mentally ill either diagnosed or undiagnosed.

    It's the same with that Ghostbusters movie. They remade it with women in place of the men. What does that achieve exactly? Again, I love strong women. The Long Kiss Goodnight is at least in my top 5 I thought it was incredible. Oh, and Kill Bill also. But doing something extreme usually looks silly, at least to me.

    The world has changed, and I am not sure I totally like it. Like, I know this guy I grew up with right. Like me if he got too lippy or rude and disrespectful he would have gotten a clap around the ear. He was raised with the same morals as me, the same rules, the same very well taught right from wrong.

    Only because of the way society has changed he allows his 6 year old son to swear like a sailor when he is at home. He thinks it's hilarious. Yet, this kid is so bad that basically his grandfather and grandmother left in disgust. You try and tell the guy (my old friend) and he will say "My house my rules". I don't get that. I, just, don't get it. He was raised the same way as me. He was taught the same way I was. How can he be such a terrible parent when he had such great parents and influences?

    I didn't like the world when I was a kid. TBH? I like it less now.
     
  11. Gareth Halfacree

    Gareth Halfacree WIIGII! Staff Administrator Super Moderator Moderator

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    We're remaking movies that previously had a 100% white cast and making it 98% white? OH NOES HOWEVER WILL THE WHITES COPE?
    It's not about appeasement, it's about representation. And guess what? There's a long, long way to go yet.

    Let's take a look at the IMDB New Movies list. Doctor Sleep: White lead. Last Christmas: White leads. Midway: White leads. Honey Boy: White lead. The Kingmaker: Not white! But that's probably because it's a documentary about Imelda Marcos (and Scarlett Johanssen was busy.) Playing WIth Fire: White leads. Arctic Dogs: Animation... with white lead VAs. Mr Toilet: Not white! Oh, it's another documentary. Better Days: Not white! ...because it's literally a Chinese film. Terminator: Dark Fate: Predominantly white, apart from a single Colombian - even the new characters, you can't just say "but they're from Terminator 2." Joker: White. Maleficent: White under the paint. Harriet: Not white! Oh, it's a docudrama about Harriet Tubman. The Addams Family: Animation, white VAs. Zombieland: Double Tap: White, but gets a grudging pass 'cos it's a sequel. Countdown: White lead, but there are at least some non-white actors in there too. Black and Blue: Not white! Which is a plot point, so that's a wash. Motherless Brooklyn: White lead, but there's a billed non-white actor in there too.

    If you're after true equality, then you'll be pleased to have the majority of actors in every single film be Chinese, right? Then Spaniards? Then Arabs? Then Bengalis? Then Portuguese? Then, and only then, the odd 'token' English? 'cos sorting this list by estimated population might open your eyes a little.
     
  12. Gareth Halfacree

    Gareth Halfacree WIIGII! Staff Administrator Super Moderator Moderator

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    Bull****. I refer you to my earlier post:
    If you can't understand that, because of the lifetime of never having to think it's unusual that the people on the screen look like you, then I'd suggest it's time for a bit of introspection.
    It achieves representation. You've already got a Ghostbusters with men in the lead roles, if that's what you want to watch. It's still there, nobody deleted it. You can watch it right now. Nobody's stopping you. Now girls have a Ghostbusters to watch with women in the lead roles. They don't have to, nobody's forcing them, they could watch the ones with men in it just like you can. But a $46 million opening weekend suggests that some would, indeed, quite like to see People Who Look Like Them as the heroes for a change.

    Representation.
     
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  13. Vault-Tec

    Vault-Tec Green Plastic Watering Can

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    No, we're remaking movies with a black main character in place of the white one and saying "There, we fixed it !". Personally I think it's insulting. To black people.

    BTW dude do you have any black friends?

    The reason I ask that is because I do, lots of them. And I can promise you, in their teens they were about as racist as it got. Their sole intention was going out and mugging white kids, in order to exact revenge for slavery.

    Now do bear in mind that came directly from one of my black friends. Who, I will add, I did not speak to for about ten years because it was considered wrong to do so. Of course he has grown up a bit now, but that is how it went. He fell in with a black gang, started doing bad things and then realised it wasn't right.

    His grandfather used to call white people devils.
     
  14. Gareth Halfacree

    Gareth Halfacree WIIGII! Staff Administrator Super Moderator Moderator

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    Yeah, dude, I do. They have black children ('cos, y'know, that's how that works.) And said black children chuffin' love it when a piece of media has a black hero in it. They buy the costumes, read the books, wear out the DVDs. The day they don't love it will be the day when it's not strange to see a black hero. Which will be nice, won't it?

    REPRESENTATION.
    Sounds like you had shitty friends; the fact they were black is by-the-by.
    So... your argument is "black people can be racist" (no duh) so... what? They don't get to be in films? Not sure what your angle is, here.
     
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  15. Vault-Tec

    Vault-Tec Green Plastic Watering Can

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    Every one can be racist. Which wasn't my point, but to address it properly obviously you would need to stop that also. And again, it all goes back to the same thing - people being different. Even visibly, if you keep on pointing that out you will create feelings.

    I didn't have shitty friends. I guess they had shitty parents, grandparents. Then again, the way they were treated when they arrived I can't say I blame them at all really. The Brixton riots didn't happen because we welcomed them with open arms, eh?

    I guess I was just unlucky to have known so many black people who had an axe to grind and were angry. Like I said, I don't blame them.

    But. When I look back? like when I was a little kid (5 or so) I did not view others in the playground as any different. I had lots of black friends, pakistanis and Indians. It was only when I was taught what I was taught, and they were taught what they were that the problems arose. Religious Education... Ahh, now there's a classic. Sit a load of black and Indian etc kids in a classroom and teach them about Christianity and how homosexuality is immoral illegal and wrong. Yeah, that's sure to work. That is where the division began. That is where the differences began. Teaching kids that they are not the same as each other etc? bad idea IMO.
     
  16. Gareth Halfacree

    Gareth Halfacree WIIGII! Staff Administrator Super Moderator Moderator

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    Er...
    Still not sure how that relates to having black actors starring in films being A Bad Thing, though, but I'm definitely sure they weren't fantastic people to be around. (Then, as you say they've changed, but then they sound like absolute horrors.)
     
  17. Vault-Tec

    Vault-Tec Green Plastic Watering Can

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    I am sure back then that they would have gotten a kick out of it. For all the wrong reasons. I thought the thread was about racism. Which is a very broad subject is it not?



    That would help a lot, IMO. On everything. Stop teaching kids they are different, stop teaching them religion. Let them mature, then make their own mind up. We can't undo what we have done. All we can do is change it, and hope it echoes through further generations. It will never be fixed all of the time you or I draw breath. No one should be angry or surprised about that either. Like, you can't tell old people that everything they were taught is BS and completely wrong and irrelevant. That's not fair either. All you can do is let that die out and hope for a better future. Problem is, again, that all the time we teach people they are different they will see themselves as different.
     
  18. Gareth Halfacree

    Gareth Halfacree WIIGII! Staff Administrator Super Moderator Moderator

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    I thought we were discussing this:
    Which, as I say, is a really weird way of looking at including people. One which mirrors the way a lot of racists think - "white erasure," and all that - which is why I wanted to highlight it and discuss it, 'cos, as you say, you're not racist, and I want to understand why someone who isn't racist would think that way and/or help you understand the issue from a different perspective.
     
  19. Vault-Tec

    Vault-Tec Green Plastic Watering Can

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    No I don't think it's white erasure. I think it's doing a disservice to black people, IMO. First of all it's a bit lazy. Just remaking a movie pretty much and replacing the main character is lazy.

    We can't rewrite history and go back and fix mistakes made in the past. That won't solve anything. That is why I see it as kinda insulting.
     
  20. Gareth Halfacree

    Gareth Halfacree WIIGII! Staff Administrator Super Moderator Moderator

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    None of the films from the IMDB list I posted are remakes, to the best of my knowledge. However, what's wrong with remakes? One of my favourite films, John Carpenter's The Thing (1982) is a remake of the 1951 B-movie The Thing From Another World.

    Scarface (1983)? Remake. Three Men and a Baby (1987)? Remake. The classic comedy Dirty Rotten Scoundrels (1988)? Remake. 12 Monkeys? Remake, and that one even got a spin-off TV series - a remake of a remake! True Lies? Remake. The Departed? Remake. Down and Out in Beverly Hills? Remake. A Fistful of Dollars? Remake. The Maltese Falcon, 1941 - remake of The Maltese Falcon from a decade earlier, they didn't even bother changing the name! Major Payne? Remake. The Toy? Remake. The most recent The Magnificent Seven? A remake of the 1960 Charles Bronson vehicle, everyone knows that - but that was an Americanised remake of Akira Kurosawa's Seven Samurai, only they changed the race of the entire cast. Ben-Hur (2016), a remake of Ben-Hur (1959), a remake of Ben-Hur: A Tale of the Christ from 1925.

    Remakes exist because they're easy, and they're nowt new. Nobody complained about those, but put a black kid in Karate Kid or women in Ghostbusters and everyone white men-children lose their minds.

    Do any of your black friends have kids? Ask 'em how they feel about remakes with black stars, or new films like the recent Star Warses having black actors in 'em. See if they feel they're doing them a disservice; I think you'll be surprised.

    I still don't see how this squares with your "removing white people" comment.
     
    Last edited: 7 Nov 2019

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