Apple Rant?

Ok - I love apple, and I often find myself on the defensive end of arguements about apple to people who do not know what they are talking about.....

But - a lot of people argue that macs are more expensive than generic box windows boxes - and what is apples response? They introduce a $2200 box that sells for $2900 from their competitors. Fine; but what about the $300 box? Apple does not have one - apple does not come close. I am often consulted for my opinion - what am I supposed to tell these people? From Dell they can buy a dell dimension B110 with 256mb ram; 80gb HD; cdr/cdrom combo drive; 17inch CRT; color inkjet printer; kbd; mouse.....


How can I tell someone interested in a complete system that they should buy an imac for $1299 or a mac mini for $599 and add a kbd ($29), mouse ($49), and monitor ($699 from apple) instead of a complete system from Dell for $300? And, that doesn't even count the price of the printer -

I just migrated a machine for a friend of my mom - she went from a 266mhz celeron to a 2.4ghz pentium 4 celeron - windows 98 to xp home edition - I told her that I would have bought a mac if I were her...... She asked my why, and I started naming all the reasons - she got interested and asked how much it would cost - I told her, and she said "oh" - and told me that she paid less than $400, got a 19 inch flat panel and a printer.....

What am I supposed to say? Does apple have an answer to this? Will they ever?

 

There is an answer and its a second had mac mini and a cheap monitor but you would struggle to find on at that price.

You don't need to spend all that cash on the apple kb/mouse/monitor either, just get generic ones.

 

No, but you don't need to use an ACD (or other Apple peripherals) with Apple machines, either. Apple doesn't really intend to have a low-end segment, but the fact that they make all their money on hardware doesn't make their kit any cheaper.

 

Hey, I'm no Mac hater, but I feel like I have to voice my thoughts on this issue.

Just to let you know, I admire Macs a lot, and still recommend them to many of my friends, but I find myself going back to PC, even though I've owned 2 Mac laptops for a time - a G4 12" Powerbook, and G4 iBook.

The things is this. MACS COST MORE. They do. You can't argue it. Look at the Macbook. I bet there's a dozen PC laptops that can match it, or even beat it for $1-200 less. It's much easier to compare them now, purely based on hardware, because they use x86 parts now. They don't cost a whole lot more. In fact, I think they're priced pretty competitively, and if I wasn't into gaming etc. I'd consider a Macbook myself.

The massive costs difference stem here:

The cheapest Mac is a Mac mini, and it's not cheap enough. Apple can't compete with PC makers. $299 desktops from Dell are made by huge volumes, and extremely discounted bulk parts (something Apple couldn't do unless they sold as many computers as their PC counterparts). Unless Apple starts adopting Celerons and standard PC parts (and none of that EFI/custom mobo nonsense). Of course, by doing that, Apple's high-end, upper-class computing image diminishes. Besides... when has Apple ever given somebody a good deal?

But look at Apple's pricing. $79 for a mouse!? $2500 for a Mac Pro, and all you get is a 7300? Ok, maybe it's not meant for gaming, and real CAD designers etc. would get a professional card, but come on. You're paying for Apple's top machine, and even their iMac trounces it in terms of graphics power. 1 GB RAM? Isn't that baseline minimum now? And of build quality - Macs are no better built than the crappy retail PCs. Sure they have gorgeous fit and finish, but's it's essentially the same Taiwanese/Chinese party slapping the parts together. Macbook batteries explode as often as Dell batteries do (if not more often).

But to me, Apple is not a bad computer. It's just another computer. They are no different from a hip version of HP, or Dell - with a following. Though, I would be lying, if I said I didn't think that Mac OS X was awesome. I love all the little features. Expose? Genius. And all those cool animations being rendered with an Intel GMA900? Vista's transparency requires a DX9 graphics card with 128MB vram minimum!

But it all comes down to what suits who. Macs are designed for people who want to do their stuff easily. A computer enthusiast, like many Bit-Tech readers here, would have little interest in a Mac which doesn't allow you to upgrade anything apart from the RAM (ok, there's HDD and optical drives etc. but that'd void your warranty). Can you overclock a Mac? No. Have you seen any Mac mods as extreme as the PC mods here? No. Do Mac users go hunt down the lowest latency RAM, the most efficient heat sink, the harddrive that spins 1 rpm faster? No.

Macs aren't superior. They have their place. Businesses won't adopt Macs because if they ran off PC, and it works for them, why bother? Enthusiasts won't adopt Macs, because the system is closed. You have to use Apple's hardware. You can't piece together your own Mac (legally).

And lastly. As easy as a Mac is to use, it's as daunting as a PC and neuro surgery to Grandma. What does she know about computers? Doesn't matter if it's PC or Mac if Old Man Willis can't figure out what a monitor does. They look at price. There's no way a Mac can compete with PC pricing.

Perhaps I sound a little anti-mac, despite what I say about respecting Macs. It's probably because of the ignorant snobbery of so many Mac fanboys that tell me that my PC is a piece of crap.

 

simple answer - can't afford one? buy a dell and quit complaining or get a career and earn more money.

Apple are simply a more expensive brand, live with it. Like B&O, Loius Vuitton or Aston Martin... they all essentially make the same things as anyone else in their respective sectors, but there is something different about their respective brand that people are willing to pay more for.
Same with Apple, otherwise they wouldn't be doing so well.

 

come on guys.


why buy a mercedes when you can get a kia for a third of the price?

why drink freshly ground coffee when you can make instant for 10p?

at the end of the day there will always be people who can only look at the bottom line. "value" to them is a concept purely defined by the price tag.

and then there are people who will appreciate there is more to it than that - and those people understand what macs are about

 

It is still, even with the x86 parts, comparing Apple's to Pear's. Apple is not interested in the low budget 300$ pc segment. Not even with the mac mini.

I paid 1800Euro for my 12" Powerbook and I have not regretted it for a minute. I prefer to use it over my AMD64 3500+ (I'm even selling it now). It's just a different kinf of computer..

If you don't want to spend that much on a decent computer, then a 300$ dell solution, nobody can beat that price. If all you do is sent an email, surf or game, then don't get a mac.

I originally got a mac laptop because I thought that they were built alot better, were smaller, lighter and lasted longer on there battery. But after using one for olmost 2 years now, I would definatly get a desktop Mac if I needed one.

L

 

the comparison with a low end car company and a high end car company doesnt work.

as you can get a windows based laptop with the same specs for less, also the black macbook is like £200 more expensive and all you get for that is the paint job and 20gb extra in the hard drive and you can make the white one have 1gb ram and an 80gb hard drive and be the same/alittle less than the basic black macbook

also, they are less in america arnt they, unless theyve changing the pricing it used to be atleast £100-200 cheaper to buy them in america than here that was my main reason for getting my laptop from acer rather than getting a mac.
too many people buy into the image of macs and get it cos it looks cool rather than value for money.

 

You can't really compare the two, you pay up front more but studies have shown apples to be better value over the life of the computer plus they have far better second hand values.

Apple will never ever get into the uber cheap dells as their simply isnt any money in it. Dell do it because the claw back loads of cash when the dumb users pay for the full versions of all the trial software. Like AOL , tiscali, mcafee paint shop etc. Apple wouldn't do this.

 

no, it does work.

apple will build the machine with higher build quality, and better quality components. have you put an acer machine and a macbook side by side? do it. then come back and tell me the car comparison doesn't work. so the black macbook is £200 more - you can charge more for a unique product if its in demand, and it is - people are buying it in droves.

they're not that much cheaper in america tbh - remember all the prices you see on the web don't include state tax which is set at around 16%. in the UK we can't get around VAT - americans can by ordering out of state.

 

buy your macbook in the us while on holiday and bring it back as hand luggage minus boxes. and i have put my acer beside a macbook and soon a macbook pro(family having them) and to be honest macs are pretty but my laptop isnt ugly or falling apart due to bad build quality.
its the same as when i got it unlike a family members g4 laptop with a dodgy backlight that will only work in a certain posision worst thing on my laptop is the cover on the cd drive got alittle bit of plastic broken when it got caught.

my basis for the car thing not working is that same insides diffrent shell, if a kia had the same insides as a ferrari or whatever other car then you could talk about build quality but your paying for a better made, higher spec car as you would expect a higher spec car to be better quality. dell with same insides as mac = same performance diffrent shell diffrent price.

also a black macbook isnt unique, its not limited idition, is it? as far as i know its just a standard product now along with the black ipod etc, yeh it looks cool but i doubt black paint/black plastic and whatnot costs alot more than white and silver.

 

Yes it does work as a lot of high end cars use parts from low end cars... unless you are taking the 'super insanely rich, we only make 10 cars per year' type of cars.

High end cars are made with a lot of bits that came off low end cars... that's a fact, period.

Apple and Dell use some of the same parts, so you are saying they are the same?

So.. in your analysis. A Lamborghini Murcielago is the same as an Audi A4 because they also share some of the same parts?

And Gordy has a point in resale values... they hold their value very, very well. I sold my 3-4 year old Powerbook for almost £500... try selling a 3-4 years old dell for that much... try even getting close to 3 figures for it.

 

I have only one response to this.. if you're cheap.. be cheap, buy a Dell and stop complaining.

In your silence, you can feel smug in yourself for having 'saved' loads of money over us 'fools' that went out and bought a Mac.

I can see no other direction to which to take this debate to try explain why we feel Macs are worth the money. If you're so cheap that you take everything down to the bottom line, then we can't change that. Some people will be cheap, some people are willing to spend the money.

 

i like spending money as muvh as anyone else its the fact im a student and i dont have the money, and im not saying people who by macs are fools or anything like that its just that alot of people buy them cos its mac, and dell do have some pretty well specced laptops, if i was cheap and wanted the bare minimum i wouldnt buy a laptop

my argument is they are the same internals as other laptops now but they charge more because it has a special design and has osx on it, but i could get a dell and shove osx on it and i have a cheaper mac but an ugly mac

my dad has a g4 powerbook/imac/i cant remember from work and its ok, i dont really like the feel of the keys or the trackpad but its not bad, but i dont think its leaps and bounds better than other laptops.
if it does what you need it to do its fine and my laptop does what i need it to do where a mac wouldnt be able to without windows, but then your just paying for the look of the laptop. i need cdertain animation programs that simply arnt made for osx.

i know people who have bought macs on the basis they are cooler than other laptops and that other great reason cos its mac, if i say you can get the same speced pc/windows laptop for less they say but its not mac or i only know how to use macs.

and just because someone wants value for money doesnt mean they want the bare minimum cheapest rubbish cos that would be really boring but macs dont make it anymore fun XD

 

You are still assuming that Macs are of higher build quality. It's true they pay attention to the aesthetics of their machines more than any PC builder I know, and it's true they look absolutely stunningly gorgeous, but the insides are no better than any OEM PC.

iPods fail the same. HDDs die the same. Macbooks and Macbook Pros explode the same. I doubt Apple puts in anymore money into their manufacturing than any other major PC corporation.

If you want to see a REAL quality build. Hop on by the modding forums. Sure the designs of some of the mods may not be to your liking. Some I find revolting, and some awesome. But the thing is - THOSE people love their computers, and put their time, effort, and money into making it the best they can - unlike the $50 a month sweatshop lady making your iPod Shuffle.

 

hahah, have you seen how well the new mac pros are put together? go see. go now.

 

I'd agree with you that Apples build quality is just the same as everyone else, the best build quality i've seen over the years is from Toshiba... i've been through around 30 notebooks through my time (at a guess) and the only ones to never, ever break down were my toshibas (all 4 of them). Closely followed by IBM. Apple, in my case are actually the worst.

But what I can also say for sure is that Apples after care system is hard to beat or fault... i've had to send my Apple computers in 4 times in total, but each time it was pleasant and quick and no fuss about telling me to check this or check that, or go back to the retailer or it's not their fault but the fault of some vendor etc etc.

 

I'm going to quote you because you were concise and you replied before the thread was dragged into.......

The thing is, this lady barely knows how to open outlook express much less order various parts from various vendors.

There have been lots of posts in this thread about how apples just cost more for the same hardware, but it's just not true. If you open a browser to dell.com and a browser to apple.com and spec out identical hardware the prices are very close, and for the high-end stuff, the apple will be cheaper.

But, apple doesn't have identical hardware to that $300 box. In this case, apple could have had a lifelong convert if just for the fact that she didn't have to pay someone $20 an hour twice a year to remove spyware for her. The problem was convincing her that spending $800 (Minimum, and from multiple vendors,) was a better idea than spending $400. In fact, she got a 19inch flat panel from dell for that, so that would make the competitive apple price be even higher. And, for what it's worth, the mac would have been a better deal - but apple will NEVER sell to this segment of the market with their current strategy.

(

Apple system approximate competitive price from MacMall.com:
HP - DESKJET 5650 COLOR INKJET PRINTER..................$.129.99
Apple Computer - USB KEYBOARD (WHITE KEYS)...........$...29.00
ViewSonic - VA902B 19" LCD DISPLAY.........................$.194.99
Microsoft - COMFORT USB/PS2 OPTICAL MOUSE 3000....$...39.98
Apple Computer - MAC MINI INTEL CORE SOLO 1.5GHZ...$.574.00
--------------------------------------------------------------
Subtotal before shipping...........................................$1007.96

)

 

Amen to that brother. I'll agree they have some great support. Free shipping for warranty repairs. Fast turnaround time. Friendly staff. They even gave me an iPod exchange a day after my warranty expired (how unluckily lucky).

As for seeing the Mac Pro, I'll agree it's gorgeous, and well designed. Hell, I wished my PC could be so neat inside. But that doesn't mean the machine is well built.

On the subject of pricing, Macs are slightly more expensive than their PC counterparts of the same SPEC, but it's not outrageously more, and very much a viable option for a new computer.

The problem with Apple's adoption is that their low end offer - the Mac mini - isn't low end enough to be cost effective. If Apple released a $300 Mac, then they may see some faster adoption. Of course, only way to make a $300 Mac would be to use crappier parts, like Celerons, and I'm guessing Apple would rather maintain a standard of speed for their computers.

You can't argue how a Mac mini can beat a $300 PC. They're in two totally different leagues, despite Apple trying to target the budget PC market with a $600 computer. PC laptops have dropped to $500 or less. Apple can't compete with that without throwing out some really bad hardware which would most likely taint their higher-end image. But in all fairness, I would seriously consider a $300 Mac, or $500 Mac laptop, even if it's a Celeron with 256MB RAM default.

As for viruses and malware, Apple fanboys tend to be a bit smug about it all. I'll admit that Mac OS doesn't have a lot, if any at all, viruses or spyware for it, but that's because it's a tiny market. If I was a hacker or spyware developer, I'd target the majority. If Apple ever does overtake Windows as the dominant OS, or even gain significant enough market share, I can bet you anything that security flaws, backdoors, holes, viruses, trojans, adware, you name it, will start popping up everywhere.

 

Just remember that mac's are "meant" to be used for multimedia stuff, hence all the amazing core technology (Core image, Core Audio etc).

Admittedly they are pretty expencive, but EVERY mac will handle all of these tasks brilliantly.

They're meant for professionals, not your grandparents.

If you want a cheap computer which will do all the usual office stuff, then get a windows or linux pc, but I'd love to see the celeron in that dell handle the windows/linux equiv of final cut pro.

At the end of the day, you pay for what you get. With a mac, you get speed, reliability (questionable), security and above all a rock solid operating system that won't throw a blue screen when you push it too hard.