Ok, I've bolded a few of the things that jumped out at me here. Granted, I'm perhaps not the best example myself of a confident relationship guru, but I've learned a few things in life from personal experience and that of friends. Others here have said things I'd like to say, but better, so I'll reiterate a few of them in my own clumsy manner... First, as others have said, work is kind of a bad place to get involved (second only to housemates and cousins.) That's not to say it's destined to fail, but it does complicate matters, especially if there's things like sexual harassment, power dynamics to consider. Lack of experience with relationships can also complicate things... this doesn't mean you're a failure or not worthy, or whatever, just that you might have a skewed sense of reality/value with this girl. My biggest concern is how much weight you are putting on her being the ONE. Granted, she stands out to you as a similar soul, and you want to validate that/you/her. I worry that you've built up a huge fantasy life in your head, and it will be perfect IF ONLY.... (fill in the blank). I find it scary that she is "flighty" (please define it more in future post as we may have a different understanding... I think of ditzy when I hear that) and willing to call off the dating (on multiple occasions) for what sounds like little things. Especially troubling to me is that this is affecting you to the point where you are internalizing it as YOUR FAULT (blaming your inexperience) when really it's not. We all make mistakes in life and in dealing with other humans, we are not all psychic or skilled with intuiting anothers needs/perspectives. I try and take the optimistic view of others' actions as much as possible, so it may be that she's the sweetest, shyest, nicest girl ever, but it doesn't bode well when the communication doesn't flow between you over problems, leading to abrupt breakups. Problems will always exist, and how each of you handles them is vital to a long term 'good' relationship. With that in mind, I suggest that you lay it out there for her (no, not richard on the table ) in a way that is comfortable for you. Writing things down in advance always helps me, in terms of getting my thoughts/key points straight, since it's easy to become discombobulated in the heat of the moment. It might just be a letter to her explaining your feelings about her, both positive and negative. You may not be comfortable sitting her down for a talk about this, but you could speak to her in a very serious tone, hand her the letter, and ask her to write you back, and walk away. With that said, there is a certain amount of getting over your shyness that you need, both for this situation, and life in general. Shyness isn't bad, but extreme shyness can backfire on you. If she's that important to you (and taking up so much of your mental energy) you need to resolve this one way or the other. If she is non-receptive to you, or to your need for more communication from her on problems, then you now know, and you can move on. If she is into you as well, and willing to work with you on a serious relationship, you can move on to the baby-making, living happily ever after stage. In short: Communication, Stand up for yourself (don't bend over backwards if you get nothing in return), and Closure.
Wow first off: 1st post was drunk post, i've been dreading reading this topic all day when i remembered what i posted after i woke up this morning But then again, me = drunk, all inhibitions gone and your see my true raw nature, which i am not disappointed of in any way (if anything, too trusting/nice, but nothing to hide) But i'm truly impressed i got a huge amount of positive responses and i'm proud of you lot After reading my post again it's spot on and more truthful than anything i'd ever post sober, so in the end is a good thing I'm really not overstating the shyness/self-confidence issues here, untill i met her i was the shiest person even i had ever met (in nearly 30 years!), but she makes me feel so bold at times in comparison, that scares me as it so unusual (but also in a way encourages me, since i'm overpowered by 99% of females out there personality-wise, there needs to be a vague balance at least IMHO) Right, time to try to reply to some of the posts Yep, you are probably right, we work in the same building, does make things fairly awkward as we both bump into each other quite frequently (she's a general admin also responsible for updating all the noticeboards, etc in the building, i'm IT helpdesk which involves seeing everyone/place in the building at random times) I think at this point, from what i've heard, she's had an extremely sheltered life, literally no more than a few friends outside her personal immediate family than 4 at most, whereas me (who i consider to be overly geeky) has a 'close' friends group of nearly 15 people, which i thought was not a lot, but scared her You're probably right, but my fear of doing anything has meant i could never convince her OR me to do this... Well, rule no1 is fine, but someone like me would never manage to talk with a girl they didn't know first, rendering it a moot point. And because i DO work with her, spilling the beans has massive problems attached if it doesn't go right. I agree work relationships = bad but non-work relationships = impossible for a shy person like me, i'll take the risk Thank you ever since things went tits-up i've tried so hard just to keep things rolling, slow at first but i've got her back into at least a reply to the current email conversation per day or 2 (usually very long replies, which is hopefull!) I have nobody else i can ask, so yes, and certainly nobody else thatv can understand where i'm coming from That is a relatively easy one for me to address actually Main reason, i'm the shyest person i've ever met in my 28 years of life bar her I have inside sources (my old extremely trustworthy supervisor of 10 years ago (~50 at the time) that works with her now and informs me she has never even had a male even take any interest in her, let alone more, and she's 24) Possible, but then again i just have no experience in this kind of thing, leading to these cries of help. i just need courage, which i have none of, taking all my will just to avoid despair at the moment :/ Grrrr, i'd have no trouble managing that Anyway, it's too late to reply to so many posts, so i shall carry on to this topic tomorrow
Easy to say but my main fear is that there will not be another chance. in 28years i have met *one* person (in my entire life, single or not) that *is slightly possible* to work out if this doesn't work (and since i've only ever met people by moving jobs and i'm now happy + secure in this one) The odds are just stacked epically against me, I'm actually more hopeful of a huge lottery win than a relationship happening... The old 'one in a million' saying looks overstated in my opinion, it's worse
ah, now that really is not true. Rudely said, clean up your act, and you'll have no trouble meeting women. I can understand how you feel, that not many or none have taken serious interest, but that is probably because you have not taken interest either. Ask Nexxo about this, but of i'm correct, there are LOADS of ways to get help with overcoming your boundaries and shyness. Look at it like this: your mind is as trainable and mouldable as your body. Go to the gym five times a week and your arms will buff up, go to councelling and your mind will. There's nothing wrong with that either, i'm still going, have been for four years. The question that comes to mind is: would you still be pursueing her if you were confident you'll meet someone else within 3 years or so? This will help you separate these two questions: 1) will i keep pursueing this girl? 2) will i stay this shy the rest of my life? And if you really desperately want to meet women, get some dancing lessons. Easiest way by far, i know a guy that met his current girlfriend there, and he went with his mother. If you take salsa lessons, it wont be totally boring either
I don't know you Cyrilthefish, or this girl, so i may be way off. If this helps, then great, but if i'm completely wrong, then just ignore! But i think everyone here knows that you seem to think this girl is your last chance at a relationship to live happily ever after. Now i assume this girl can see this from a mile away, as girls are apparantely much better than us dumb guys at reading emotions. If you think that you have no chance with any other girl, so that this girl is your last hope, it will show, for everyone to see, in everything that you do - the way you speak, the words you choose, your tone of voice, the way you sit, walk, everything!!! It's like wearing a sign with big bold letters "YOU ARE THE ONLY GIRL I THINK I HAVE A CHANCE TO BE HAPPY WITH" Can you imagine how she would feel if you are sitting next to her on the bus whilst wearing this sign, then you move nice and close to her it's not surprising she thought that was too much. If you are always telling yourself this about her, then that's what you will believe. If you start telling yourself, over and over in your head, things like "I'm a nice person because..." "Any girl would be lucky to be with me because of #1.... #2.... #3..... etc..." "I deserve a girl that treats me just as nicely" etc, all things that you already know, then you will start to believe it, as you know all these things are true, so it's like you are just forcing yourself to remember all the good things, instead of just thinking about any negative thing you can possibly pick on. No point beating yourself up for every little thing you can! There's a thread over in general full of us beating ourselves up other dumb stuff, just imagine how we would feel if we just thought about all the dumb stuff we've done all day long! You say she doesn't like it when you sit too close/smother her, maybe thats the last straw/a bit too much intensity, maybe you are worshiping her too much/being too clingy? You did say that you are "too nice", which is common amongst shy guys. If you got your self esteem up, there's heaps of guides for ways to boost one's self esteem (and a great foundation for self esteem is to work out - sit-ups & push-ups are all you need to do, you don't have to join a gym!) and your confidence will grow. Don't be the guy that is willing to be her slave, be the man that she loves to be with, be the man that any girl would love to be with! There are also a few guides i've noticed around the net, with titles like "getting out of the friendzone" and "how not to be the nice guy" etc, some are just really nasty and extreme, but some are a little more down to earth. I think that if you get your self esteem up, then you'll find that not only can you have this girl if you wish, but you can hook up with almost any available girl you meet. I have no idea if this girl really is a nice person or not? Or if she's compatible with you? But i think by the time you get your confidence up you'll be better able to say what you really want. Don't ever think that she's your last option, always remember that any girl would be lucky to be with you, and you know that, don't you? Would any guy in the world be nicer to his girl than you? No, and that's why you deserve a girl that is nice to you, so do not settle for anything less - you are better than that, don't accept crap from anybody. Some pushups, sit-ups, read up on boosting one's self esteem, and you'll feel alot better
One word, honesty. Tell her honestly and frankly how you feel about her and that you want to be with her. Tell her honestly that her retarded behaviour isn't gonna fly. Tell her you expect honesty from her, so instead of binning you and flying off, tell her she needs to tell you what it is that you're doing she doesn't like and why. The above advise has always worked for me. I've always been very honest and open with the women I'm with. It hasn't always worked out, but I see that as an advantage, since they obviously weren't ready to accept the truth and weren't right for me. At least if things don't work out you know it was for the right reasons. <EDIT> Just read mvagustas post and 100% agree. Basically, man up and realise that if you're not a complete arse, you deserve an equally nice girl in your life.
Man, you really can't put all your eggs in one basket! Girls can sense if you need them, and they will walk all over you. It will be innocent at first, but due to the nature of learning they will work out how far they can push the boundary. And soon you will be highly unhappy, but stay with her because you think you can't get anyone else. You're better than that man!
Cynical & disgusting. But we've all been there! Horsesh1t! Unless, of course, you continue to tell yourself this on a daily basis. There is someone for everyone; this woman may or may not be yours. If not, relax and keep your mind open. You and your better-half-to-be find each other eventually, usually the moment you stop trying and just enjoy life. As for this lass, I would write her a letter. You won't be limited by shyness, and you won't say the wrong thing at the wrong time; you can't go wrong. The worst that can happen is...nothing. Let's face it, she ain't the type to have a giggle over it with her work mates! In the letter, explain how you feel, confess your fears, but tell her what she does for you. Ask her how she feels, and explain you want to understand her. It may have absolutely no effect but you'll have lost nothing. If it works, you both get a second chance. However, don't just repeat what you did first time around - things have to be different (which means you *both* have to change). And if it still doesn't work out, you can at least comfort yourself that she wasn't *the* one, and you can move on.
I agree with both of those. If you talk to her, and she can't do it, I'm sorry but she's most likely not mature enough to have an involved relationship where both of you are open and honest to each other and comfortable with that honesty. The more you chase after a girl, the more she'll tease you and toy with you. It doesn't sound like she's taking you seriously, either because she's enjoying the attention (even if it's on random days) or she doesn't know what she wants, or just plain isn't ready for a relationships like what you want. I totally see where you're coming from about being shy though, I'm the same myself, or was anyways, just take a step outside, talk to a random female who you find at least somewhat attractive, and go from there. Even if it goes bad, 99% chance you'll never see her again anyways.
A good tip for talking to a random female, is to ask her "What's your favourite Swear Word?" You want them to swear at you, it's probably the worst scenario you could imagine, a girl telling you to **** off. But you are seeking this, and due to you expecting it, you can start a fun conversation! But of course give a fun reason first, something like "My friend reckons F*ck is the most popular but I think it is Sh*t" or however you want to put it. You'll be surprised at how normal girls actually are, and willing to have a good chat if they sense you are just fun, and not after them sexually. Then just go from there.
A random female? "What is your favourite swear word?". Subject of many restraining orders by any chance? Whatever happened to just being yourself?
Whoa, whoa, look at the reasoning errors here: Reasoning error 5: Jumping to conclusions - Assuming something negative where there is no evidence to support it. Subtype: Mind reading - Making assumptions about what others think or feel based on their apparent behaviour. Reasoning error 9: Labeling - Rather than describing a specific behavior, you assign a label to someone or yourself that puts them in absolute and unalterable terms. Reasoning error 7: Emotional reasoning - Making decisions and arguments based on feelings rather than objective facts. "I feel it, therefore it must be true". And may I also add the cognitive bias: Confirmation bias — the tendency to search for or interpret information in a way that confirms one's preconceptions. How does he know that no male has ever taken an interest in her? If that is actually true, what could be the many reasons that might be (other than shyness)? Reasoning error 1: All-or-nothing thinking - Thinking of things in absolute terms, like "always", "every" or "never". Few aspects of human behavior are so absolute. Reasoning error 2: Overgeneralization - Taking isolated cases and using them to make wide generalizations. Reasoning error 3: Mental filter - Focusing exclusively on certain, usually negative or upsetting, aspects of something while ignoring the rest. Reasoning error 5: Jumping to conclusions - Assuming something negative where there is no evidence to support it. Subtype: Fortune telling - Predicting how things will turn before they happen. Reasoning error 6: Magnification and Minimization - Inappropriately understating or exaggerating the way people or situations truly are. Subtype: Catastrophizing - Focusing on the worst possible outcome, however unlikely. May I also point out the global ("Everything is crap"), stable ("It will always be crap") and internal ("I am crap") nature of all your attributions? Now listen up: Just because you are shy, doesn't mean that you will only be able to engage with an equally shy girl, or be only attractive to equally shy girls. You may meet a really confident girl who just likes you for, you know, being you, and has the confidence and patience to allow you to come out of your shell. It is the most confident people that make us feel more confident. They have nothing to be defensive about, see? They are just happy to accept you for who you are. I'm OK, you're OK. Just because you are shy, doesn't mean that you won't ever meet another girl who is interested in you. I mean, really, WTF?!? You had two already! Just because those relationships didn't work out doesn't mean your shyness was the cause or the problem. Ever consider it might have been something else? Ever consider it might have been their stuff as much as yours? Just because you are shy, doesn't mean that you are always and forever doomed to be shy in all aspects of your life. Social anxiety is curable, you know. Just because this girl is the first girl you have ever met who appears (and I underline this deliberately) to be as shy as you, doesn't mean that there aren't plenty of others out there. Psychology surveys show that 62% of the population rates itself as shy in some way or other. Its most extreme manifestation, Social Anxiety Disorder, is the third most common mental health problem after depression and alcoholism.
wow, apparently he only missed reasoning errors 4 and 8... what are they? Cyril, i'm poking fun at a post, not at you. Get to work though, you need some help getting out of that shell! Nexxo, best way to do that?
As usual, Nexxo clears up the thread with good advice While i've disagreed a few minor times in the past i still can't really fault you. Anyway, i think you touched on the core problem for both me and her: 'self confidence' there is none... AT ALL... on either side from what i've seen.... That really is the core problem and there is no way to fix ix it as it's mutually exclusive: The shier your are the less opportunity to gain confidence, once you hit the trip point it seems game over... :< I know i've nearly given up and all evidence points to her being even less positive than me... few minor thingies though: It's so very very hard to continue in the face of 100% oposition, especially when you nothing at all to counter with... That said, i will continue trying to the last, even though i think it's doomed, Any hope > no hope
Crapola. Another reasoning error that you are making is what we call (in Cognitive Analytical therapy) a "trap": repetitive cycles of thinking/behaviour/feeling of which its consequences feed back into its perpetuation. Basically: 1 "I'm too lacking in confidence to get out there and meet people/pull a girl" 2 "Therefore I can't gain confidence" 3 GOTO 1 What? Never heard of Graded Exposure? 1. Talk to a girl. Any girl. Don't have any agenda --just chat briefly. Talk about the weather, a film, or make a joke. Do it for 30 seconds. Repeat. 2. Now increase chatting time. One minute, two, three. 3. Invite a girl to join for drinks after work. Again: no agenda, just a pint, let off steam, stuff like that. Other colleagues can come along. 4. If you chat to girls in the office frequently, you may eventually and note a common interest. If they're single, invite them to this common interest: see a movie together, go to a concert, whatever. Remember: your objective is not to woo her or bed her, but to get comfortable in social relationships. etc. But it seems to me that you are caught a bit in (what we call in Transactional Analysis) a "wooden leg" game (as in: "Hey, what do you expect from a guy with a wooden leg?") in which a (often self-perceived) handicap or impairment becomes a convenient excuse for avoiding things that are a bit scary or challenging. We have a lot of people on benefits with a "bad back" who nonetheless manage to prop themselves up on a bar stool for hours on end in the pub... This is the same thing.
Don't you think telling a really shy person to 'be themselves' is bad advice in a dating situation? lolz If you don't want anything to do with it, don't read the thread!
Hahah so true. Too many factors to deal with when it comes to finding a relationship. There's always science! NLP- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuro-linguistic_programming Body Language- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_language
