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Quite possibly. So the correct response is not to hate them back. They are misguided, but so are the British government and a great many people in this country. This was spelled out well enough on the first page. Remembrance Day has become politicised over the past decade in order to garner support for illegal and immoral wars. Is it not possible that what these Muslims were protesting was not the original and correct meaning of Remembrance Day, but British foreign policy since the 90s and how politicians have used Remembrance Day like a cheap trick to galvanize the populace into support of their dubious actions? It is their right to protest, as it is our right to argue about it. But further hate will do nobody any good.
Stuart. How often do you reflect on the "collateral damage" in their war zone? Those who didn't want a warzone, but go it. Just wondering.
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On these forums I do not try to be a psychologist (not to the members anyway). I come here for leisure, not work. But I can make observations about how people reason and debate. I don't even have to be right; it is just my take on it. I am not saying that you are a racist for disapproving of the protesters' actions. I am saying that you cannot expect people to leave their country just because they disagree with its government or behave in an uncivil manner --unless you think that all Brits ought to lose their right to live here if they misbehave badly. You then said that I was probably going to accuse you of racism next. I said: if the shoe fits, feel free to put it on, but to quote your argument: I never said that. Indeed: And I agree also with: For some people it has indeed become hard to tell. Politicians are amongst them. It has become a form of worship: an elevation to martyrdom or sainthood of some kind. Think it over. + Rep for that one. And if protesters burn a poppy on Armistice day, you have the same choice to ignore it. I think that would indeed have been a more effective protest. To stand alongside the others, silently commemorating the loss of civilian life in the latest Afghan and Iraqi conflicts would have made much more of an impact. But, as we have all agreed, we're dealing here with a bunch of indoctrinated drop-out losers. I agree (see? That wasn't hard). But however badly they made it, they still had a point. Now ask yourself why they felt it apt to make it on Armistice day: Exactly. You sound more rational when you stop swearing and calling the protesters names too. But I suspect you are right: you'd really hate it if they put their point across well. Except that however badly they made it and however hypocritical they are, they still have a point. And that should worry and upset you much more.
Where the protesters went wrong is that they acted hatefully and therefore stupidly. As a result it is easy to dismiss them and in doing so, the point they were trying to make. I am not disagreeing with you opinion of them, but I am reminding you that they still had a point, and if we consider ourselves the Good Guys we should reflect on that point.
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We'll have to disagree on the first point. The second one is a fair one: I'd have been happy to see them arrested. In fact, I still don't understand why Abu Hamza's UK passport has not been taken away from him. He was not born in Britain and he has no valid claim on the nationality. The argument is that because he has become persona non grata in his home country of Egypt it would render him stateless. Not sure how that suddenly is a British problem. Seriously, kick the man out. The more paranoid side of me says that the government's strangely tolerant attitude towards him is due to the fact that he is a useful bogeyman to galvanise public fear of terrorism and galvanise their support for two unpopular wars in the Middle East.
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Wow. Maybe this needs someone a little more divorced from the action. I see the actions of the protesters as understandable if offensive. This is really hearkening back to draw mo day again. But, the patriotic Brits (who have every right to be) are missing a bit of a point here. We, in being patriotic, are a living reminder that the people that killed their family members and friends are heroes. If we went there, and listened to a memorial for fallen Taliban, the shoe would be on the other foot. Also, there is a statement that needs to be made here. Just because there are protests does not in any way mean that the sacrifice is forgotten. Did you forget? No, of course not. Did you observe it? Probably so. They chose not to. Instead, they remembered that the same people you're propping up as heroes are the ones who despoiled their land, ruined their lives and destroyed their way of life. This is true for a lot of other peoples too-remember "the sun never sets on the British Empire?" Now, who's wrong here? Probably everyone. But, I think it's more a matter of degrees. There is nothing inherently wrong with being proud of your nation and nationality. I'm still a proud American, even though I'm also a member of the Seminole Nation. I don't see that as a problem. It does, however, create some uncomfortable moments. You know what's a really uncomfortable day? Thanksgiving. There is nothing like commemorating the day your people saved the white folks, only for them to massacre you and take your land. But I don't burn a turkey (intentionally) on that day. I do spend some time remembering those I never had the chance to know. I don't cause trouble for others who are simply glad their family had a place to go. Because while the day might be a big, impersonal deal the celebrations are all about personal feeling and experience. So sure, we might have started that war over there, and it might be illegally. Admitting that doesn't give any mother anywhere back her son, or daughter her father. It doesn't rebuild lives or homes. So the protesters have a right to be upset, but at the same time, those British soldiers fought and bled and died because they believed they were preserving the British way of life-and I will not fault the individual men for that. To deny either side their say is to deny the actions that led to the statement. Both sides are being assholes, both sides don't want to change. Neither side is even wrong in their admiration and respect for their chosen group. Remembrance Day is an appropriate response by the British public to their feelings of patriotism and thanks. And the simple burning of a symbol is most certainly a less violent form of protest than what could have been. It was a symbol, after all. And while people think that burning the symbol destroys the idea, that is far from the truth. The symbol is merely a reminder. If someone burns an American flag, the ideals that those men worked to create, the labor, the effort, the hopes, dreams and impassioned cries of those millions is not rendered null and void. It may hurt your heart to see it, but if you still carry the ideas in your head and the ideals in your heart it is in no way diminished. If that poppy was for remembrance, nothing changed the fact that those men and women were remembered. It is still an immutable fact, after the symbol has turned to ash. So if you disagreed with the burning, you're well within your rights to do so. Be a proud Brit. But remember those men died not only for you to be proud, but for others to say they feel disenfranchised. They died to give that equal right-in the belief that all men, of any race, color or creed are equal-to the both of you. Free speech is that. It can be offensive, it can be rude. But I would for a moment step back and say to myself that as much as it pains me to say it, they have a point. Voltaire said that "I may not agree with what you have to say, but I will defend your right to do so to the death." If you want them to stop burning effigies, extend to them your hand, let them know that you wish to remember THEIR dead as well, and see where that leads. Teach them about why they should have pride in their own country. Be something to be proud of. Sorry if I rambled. I AM a disenfranchised individual living in a country that has everything it has due to stealing it from the indigenous peoples, but I still choose to support that country because it's all I have-and it has afforded me so many great opportunities. Eh, I'm off to hunt the wild sandwich.
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You never know how much goes into a line of thought like that until you're the one with the match in your hand. The two of you really had no actual argument, you simply disagreed on how to show your displeasure. Maybe it just took a voice from outside to remind us about that.
great discussion, interesting perspectives, and it has spurred me to refresh my memory and reflect on how some traditions need to be adapted over time to reflect our, hopefully, new understandings. as for the United States, “Congress officially recognized the end of World War I when it passed a concurrent resolution on June 4, 1926, with these words: Whereas the 11th of November 1918, marked the cessation of the most destructive, sanguinary, and far reaching war in human annals and the resumption by the people of the United States of peaceful relations with other nations, which we hope may never again be severed, and Whereas it is fitting that the recurring anniversary of this date should be commemorated with thanksgiving and prayer and exercises designed to perpetuate peace through good will and mutual understanding between nations; and Whereas the legislatures of twenty-seven of our States have already declared November 11 to be a legal holiday: Therefore be it Resolved by the Senate (the House of Representatives concurring), that the President of the United States is requested to issue a proclamation calling upon the officials to display the flag of the United States on all Government buildings on November 11 and inviting the people of the United States to observe the day in schools and churches, or other suitable places, with appropriate ceremonies of friendly relations with all other peoples.” wow, the above is certainly not resonating with me today, thinking of all that followed. bank employees get the day off here and the post office is closed, not sure how many people engage in “friendly relations with all other peoples,” let alone remember their war dead. as for Remembrance Day in the UK and elsewhere, and the significance of the poppy, has anyone actually read In Flanders Fields? here’s the last stanza: “Take up our quarrel with the foe: To you from failing hands we throw The torch; be yours to hold it high. If ye break faith with us who die We shall not sleep, though poppies grow In Flanders fields.” sounds like a continued call to arms to me, not a time to honor sacrifice and preserve peace. these salient points/implication of the real foe come to mind: “It's all about keeping order and an easy-to-follow narrative. You can't actually expect us to understand the motivations of the people whose country we occupied - Not only is it unpatriotic and defiles the legacy of our familiy members who got killed while killing those other people - but it'd make for a confusing geopolitical tale.” (@vipersgratitude) “Remembrance Day has become politicised over the past decade in order to garner support for illegal and immoral wars. Is it not possible that what these Muslims were protesting was not the original and correct meaning of Remembrance Day, but British foreign policy since the 90s and how politicians have used Remembrance Day like a cheap trick to galvanize the populace into support of their dubious actions?” (@okenobi) how about some real benefits for surviving Vets? screw a red wreath when you’re dead. how about an International War Victims Day? a day to remember every innocent person caught in the crossfire of another county’s global agenda, simply because they were in the way? and thanks for your post kayin, i could relate to what you said about symbols.
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They hate us so we hate them. They started it. What they did and said was out of order. The kind of logic people use in with regard to wars and conflicts just gets people no where. It's OK to be offended by protestors. As soon as people go of on one and start calling them fit to burn, you have dropped to their level. In their eyes they may have been thinking about their fallen (In a way you found offensive), and when you call them dishounourable or worse. In effect you have become them. Right or wrong knee jerk reactions just escalate the situation. "An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind" Mahatma Ghandi People get very upset and came say and do hurtfull things. If your reaction is to say or do something hurtfull back, will that make you right, or just make you as bad as them. You have the right to be offended by what they did. They have the right to be offended by what our troops have done in our name. But if we react with anger and hate we just create a conflict spiral (ppt link) There is a reason why they are upset. perhaps instead of knee jerk anger, which has proven such a wonderfull tool on solving conflicts, perhaps calm dialouge (on both sides!) might be better.
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The correct action is to shrug you shoulders and ignore them. Thats all. Like all attentions, thats the only way to respond.
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