Russian Science video - Reviving a severed dog's head.

i once read a roald dahl short story in which a man who was dieing of cancer and his doctor friend convinced him to take part in an experiment in which before he died (which was very soon) he was to have his whole brain removed along with the eyes and attached to an artificial breathing machine and heart to pump blood into his brain.. They floated the brain in some kind of fish tank with the eyes still attached and floating in their own little petri dishes... The story ends with the disgruntled wife tormenting the floating brain of her husband and deciding not to put him out of his missery.

As i was reading that book i always though that in theory, that is totally possible... This is quite an interesting and both sick at the same time..

 

Well, beheaded people's heads survive for quite a few seconds after the "punishment" until the blood drains and oxygen starves.

It's amazing it's still kept so concious despite the fact it has no hormones or anything else the other organs in the body supply.

 

that last picture of the monkies reminds me of a lan network

 

Lovely creepy movie!

And I agree that it is probably possible aswell, can't tell if this exact movie is real though. Pretty creepy stuff. Very awesome that this is from the 40's.

L

 

I donno why....maybe I could have some celebrity head attached to my neck. I just want to shout at something that is on my neck and try to fight with it via monty python and the holy grail 3 headed guy kinda way.


[edit] I watched it again and...its even creepier the second time.

 

That's from the short story "William and Mary" in the book "Kiss Kiss" by Roald Dahl (1959). William was a domineering sod. When he died his wife thought she'd be free of him, but his notary presents her with a box containing his life-supported brain and eyes. She agrees to continue caring for him --and gets her revenge by doing all the things he used to forbid her to do, in his presence, knowing that he is powerless to intervene.

That's from the Twilight Zone (new 1985 series) episode 43: "Quarantine" (First aired: 2/7/1986 Production Code: 49). One of the things featured in a futuristic world are (with their consent) bio-engineered chimps which function as a telepathic computer data storage and processing network.

 

Is there any benchmarks on those "Bio-Engineered Chimps" (amd/intel/chimp?)

 

We'll get one in and compare it in the future.

 

I know it is very energy efficient --it costs peanuts to run.

 

WOuldn't the pun work better with bananas?

 

I have to disagree and I think Casey explains it perfectly, though not exactly on purpose.

The first thing you have to understand is that this comes from the USSR in 1943 at a time that the USSR was desperate to prove that it wasn't a 3rd world (or second rate) country. Obviously there was a great incentive to falsify or exaggerate anything that might even have a foundation of positive truth.

It's well documented that nearly anything the USSR government published was falsified. The USSR was famous for claiming the invention of the polio vaccine, inventing the electric lightbulb and so many other preposterous things. Yet have you ever heard of Sergey Korolyov? Of course not because he was a true Russian genius and thus posed a threat to the government (Stalin). Because of this, Sergey Korolyov was buried in anonymity until glasnost.

Stalin would only give credit to people who didn't deserve credit so that he could revoke it (the credit) if need be. If an individual truly made individual achievements (or was the obvious leader of a specific program like Sergey Korolyov) then he was a threat to Stalin (who was very paranoid – the novel 1984 was written specifically with Stalin in mind who was famous for having people removed from photo’s etc).

If Sergei S. Bryukhonenko (who is credited for this dog head film/work) was in fact this successful, the film would have never been released, it would have been a secret of the state of the USSR (Stalin) and Bryukhonenko would have been held in the deepest suspicion.

Ironically then, the USSR would purposefully claim inventions falsely as its own even when outside the truth was widely known and the truly great individual achievement’s would go un-recognized (again purposefully).

If you understand this "context", you should then decide to look at the film again with a more critical eye. You will notice the "wide" shot of the dog head is different from the close-up. In the wide shot, the dog head is unattached and obviously dead (assuming its a real dogs head) and the hair is significantly matted.

When they go to the close-up the hair is full of life and body (it has bounce). Either this is a different dogs head or it is the same dog head but with the scenes out of order or between the scenes they gave the dogs hair a good wash and rinse. Considering there is no logical reason for the third possibility, only the first two can be given serious consideration. Why would they show the scenes out of order or use different dog heads (which are obviously meant to be mistaken for the same head)?

The only likely answer, they faked the 2nd scene (where the dog's head is moving). Seriously now, why would they "zoom in" to see the details of the head moving, when they would have been just as obvious from the only slightly further position. Or then, why didn't they at least pick an angle where it was obvious there was no dog body on the moving head? And if it wasn't faked, why did they change dog heads when they "zoom in"?

No, obviously there really is a dog body attached to the head shown in the 2nd scene and it is simply off camera. Probably the hair has been shaved off of it and some black rubber has been placed tightly around the body to make it look like it matched with the first scene - where the bodiless dog head was attached only to the heart pump.

As for the 2nd dog, it is quite obvious fiction. 1 - they supposedly drain the dog’s body of blood until it dies. 2 - they simply re-introduce oxygenated blood with a heart/lung machine and the dog fully recovers. 3 - they claim the dog goes on to live a healthy life.

The big problem here is the structure of a mammals vascular system. Veins and arteries have negligible strength against vertical compression. Thus, without the internal pressure of the blood, they collapse. When they collapse, they clot/stick together and are very resistant to being re-opened. They act much like a balloon that you blow up a few times and then let it set. It seals itself off and its design makes it nearly impossible to re-open. After draining the blood in this fashion, it simply would have been impossible to re-introduce blood to the entire arterial/vascular system.

Even if a dog is resuscitated in this fashion (notice the lack of electrical stimulation to the heart), when the heart does start beating again, it will be working against the artificial pump (unless out of crazy coincidence they manage to synchronize?). The problem here is the heart is a very strong muscle and it simply is not designed with the possibility that another "pump" might be in the system. The resulting pressures and fluid dynamics are bound to damage the heart severely. This would make the prospects of a full and lifelong recovery improbable.

What we really see here is if you take a little bit of truth, you can use it to tell a big lie. I am sure that you can get some mobility out of a severed head for a few minutes, but something as dramatic as shown here is simply impossible.

Additionally, Bryukhonenko was able to successfully revive DROWNED dogs with the process shown here (in the 2nd half of the video), but with a very limited success. If I remember correctly, he was able to revive about 18 out of 42 drowned dogs and none of them fully recovered.

However, the fundamental principles are sound, so its easy to believe.

Finally, this is a great thing for Stalin to have staged and then use to hold over Bryukhonenko's head. If Stalin ever needed to check Bryukhonenko, he would only need to show that this internationally released film was a fraud and it would have destroyed Bryukhonenko's reputation.

 

I must admit not really having looked at or listened to the second part of the video very closely, and I agree that draining a body of blood and then re-introducing it would be very tricky (if that is what supposedly happened --I'll have to look again). I do not think it unlikely that sequences were shown out of order or that the truth was embellished a bit (or even a lot). Even if this was not a deliberate plot by Stalin, I'm sure that he provided scientists with plenty of "incentive" to make it look as if they were producing results.

That is not exactly true. Stalin's monumental idiocy (as is typical of dictators) did make for a scientific environment unconducive to genuine science. However the Russians were not exactly country bumpkins. Since Glasnost there has been plenty of evidence that yes, they did develop vaccines, and yes, they did invent things that we in the West think we had invented (try Vladimir Zworykin since we're naming names. ). The problem was that the Iron Curtain made the sharing of scientific ideas near impossible, so for years USSR science developed parallel to our own, making very similar discoveries and interventions at very similar times. But we never got to hear from theirs, and they never got to hear much of ours. Of course we do know that they also put the first satellite in orbit, and put the first animals and first man in space.

You will of course now point to Sergey Korolyov for that one (and of course I have heard of him; who hasn't?), but the reason that he was kept shrouded in secrecy was because he was a valuable asset and the Russians were in a space race, after all. No good the Americans trying to get him to defect to the West (given that he survived a six-year stint in a Gulag due to Stalin's "Great Purge" in 1938, it was assumed that he might carry a grudge and be open to such persuation). In any case the man was a genius, but not the only one. In the world Stalin created it was just hard to tell the true geniuses from the sycophants and pretenders.

Not true. Stalin very much understood the status value of having "culture" and "science" (albeit in the way a chav "understands" the value of a nice car) --he liked to show off what a great nation the USSR was-- and therefore was very keen to hang on to good artists and scientists. The problem was that he couldn't tell a good one from a bad one (he was a country bumpkin) and therefore relied on a lot of bad advice from people who were either too afraid to speak up or had power games going on of their own.

...and thus cast suspicion on his own country's entire scientific reputation? Make the USSR the laughing stock of the scientific world? I really don't think so. Stalin was a brute man of brute methods -- he would have simply made Bryukhonenko spend some time in a Gulag, or threaten his family with such a prospect if he needed to "check" him.

I am sure that there has been some economy with the truth in this video, but don't dismiss it as an outright fake. Stalin's paranoia might have extended for isntance to not sharing some of the vital scientific details and procedures that would make the experiment reproducable, and that we know to look for.

 

Is there anything you dont know nexxo ?

 

Prob the most educational item on the damn forums, i felt sad for one of the dogs.

 

why? they lived for years afterwards...were probally in good health and heavily sedated at the time of the experiments...prolly were better health than I am now!

And im looking forward to Amd vrs Intel vrs Monkey head. (who will win! ) and for heavy OCs you can give them caffinated peanuts!!11one!

 

Never did I say anything to impugn the Russian scientific community. I merely said that the government claimed credit for ludicrous things and then hid from the world the real accomplishments. And its almost like you agree with me . . . LOL – but I guess not. But look, this is nearly the only thing to come from the other side of the iron curtain at the time. Now with all of the real and useful and promising work how was it this one came through and not the other significant things?

I never said or implied he was the only one. I merely used him as an obvious example. Should I endeavor to list every example? Isn’t one enough? You ask who doesn't know him? I have found his name to be rare even among the most educated people (i.e. people who at least know who von Braun is and thus should know Korolyov as well).

I'm not sure exactly what it is you have issue with here. You have already admitted their scientific community was shielded from the west, I am just mentioning one way it was done. O.K I shouldn't say never - it was common? Is that better? That is the only reason I mentioned Korolyov, to show that Stalin purposefully misled the public about the achievements of individuals. You even list some good reasons for Stalin to behave this way.

Stalin was a man who saw plots at every turn. He had very serious mental issues. People like Stalin make their own plots. Maybe you are expecting him in this one instance to act rational? Why? He actually thought he could change history by altering photographs and order people to forget specific things and people ever existed.

But sure, I am not even saying this Stalinist plot is definitely the case. However, a Stalinists plot seems much more plausible then for a movie to be an accurate depiction of a scientific study (the first half) followed by an obvious farce (the second half – go to 11:16 or so, that’s where they say very specifically, all the blood is drained out of the 2nd dog).

Here's the real problem, nothing on the tape is science. It looks like science, it has a sciencey feel to it, but it is and never was science. There are no recorded methods or facts or any of the basic things needed to re-create the "experiment". Considering that this was theoretically done many times (unless they just happen to have the camera there and ready the one time it worked) - there would be records and journals and full documentation such that any interested 3rd party could recreate the entire affair. Nothing like that has ever turned up on this subject.

Without that documentation, this is just any ole science fiction. Remember that they had cold fusion on tape just like this, but no one could duplicate it. Until a 3rd party has duplicated an experiment, it is not part of the body of scientific knowledge and should be held as suspect.

This is the main point actually. But don't you think its odd that there ARE scientific details on the more reasonable aspects of Bryukhonenko's work and none of it is this fantastic? And that his actual published work makes the 2nd half of the film complete fiction (draining the blood of the dog and then simply re-filling it). Now why would he (Bryukhonenko) publish his miracle work (the dog head that can lick its nose) with work that is obviously contrived?

Whoever was responsible for the production of this movie was not at all concerned about the reputation of the Russian scientific community and I hardly imagine it left the USSR without Stalin’s approval.

 

If you are talking about the dogs, this is not the case. Contrary to what he film shows, the actual documentation shows the dogs did not live long after the experiments. They died due to accumulation of fluids in the lungs.

 

Well they seemed healthy. And near the end in that breif moment they looked happier than i could ever all that crap done to me. ;(

 

Lungs? Didn't they have low pressure diaghram pumps? Artificail lungs can be drained by opening a valve and adding pressure into them.

 

Poor doggies!!