Rant Slashed for a cigarette!

US Robber: those people got guns, so let's shoot them first (with the gun I bought around the corner at walmart) and then see if they got anything
EU Robber: *point knive* Give your wallet (no guns, because guns aren't easy to get)

The nice thing about not being able to buy guns is that the criminal will also be far less likely to own one. Thus I don't need deadly force to protect by family, a steelpipe is more then enough. And offcourse I don't live in a criminal hell hole, so criminals aren't a big problem

 

Then I would say it'd have been worth killing a man for. Point is it wasn't, and yet some people are still suggesting that this man should have been shot dead when he did (no doubt highly unpleasent and painfull) relatively minor damage in the grand scale of things.

You think a methhead has a thought process? Dude, the guy was hardly rational, he slashed someone over a 20pence stick of tobacco.

And yet every crime stat proves the opposite. The US has widespread gun ownership, the UK has basicly no gun ownership. The US has a violent crime rate 5 times that of the UK. The threat of mortal retribution doesn't seem to work very well. Even the dishing out of mortal retribution doesn't seem to work that well, given that the owner of a gun is many times more likely to be shot with it themselves than to shoot an aggressor.

Assuming that this addict is going to get away with his crime is a bad assumption. There's a good chance there was some CCTV around, or that Phe can describe him well enough to identify him (junkies and addicts are often known to local law enforcement) and he can be jailed. Mandatory sentence for even carrying a knife as an offensive weapon is 5 years, if the lawyers push for it you could get an attempted murder charge in there, probably add another 10-20 years onto that sentence. Hardly "getting away with it".

 

If the intent to kill is as culpable as the act of killing, then half the world is probably guilty. There's a reason the Law distinguishes between murder and attempted murder.
Punishing someone for what their actions might have led to is basically playing God. You're saying you know what would have happened, and that the possibility demands as much punishment as the actual event would have.

Imagine trying to reprimand every person for all their potential crimes...

 

The more serious issue is that if every one has guns so will the guy asking for the ciggy... more chance of dodging a knife than a bullet.

 

specofdust,

The the point that I am trying to make, in all respects, is that his actions could have been deadly. You cannot say it would be ok to use deadly force IF the action WOULD have been deadly! That is totally inconceivable! Its like asking the meth head if he is going to give you a flesh wound or fatality!

How many here have ever even shot a gun? Or better yet, a hand gun? Its one thing to just shoot it, but the intimidation level that comes with one is so intense you prolly wouldn't even need bullets in the dang thing (of course that is not wise if your facing irrational people, or for that matter anyone).

 

It's the internet, not an English Exam.

First, the guy has no right to get a cigerette from Phe, he bought the cigs, they are his, the guy a some poor arsehole who would rather slash/kill someone for a cigerette than go and get himself a job. I've known drugged up people to come up to me and ask for £5.00, and when you say "No" some go all agressive, my response everytime is "I've given you 10p (Or whatever, never over 20p), now I haven't got anymore and your pissing me off, and it works.

Asking for a cig, asking for someone's mobile, it's the same thing, it's something that the person has bought, and someone wants to "mug" I guess, but in a "nicer" way?...

I always say "Lay the first hit", because 99% of the time, if that knife went into Phe's neck, he would of went to the floor, and I can 100% garantuee that guy would of kept stabbing and would of taken everything he had on him.

 

Right, but if on the whole people don't carry bullets then mostly people will ignore guns. And if on the whole people do carry bullets, then for the most part when the gun is used they'll be being shot by that same gun that they paid money for, and with those same bullets they paid money for. Great! It's not that I disagree, guns are certainly scary things and I'm sure I'd be crapping myself if I had one pointed at me. At the same time though, a gun escalates a situation in a way that just doesn't make good sense when the stats are considered.

There are a great many idealised situations and thought processes brought forward by pro-gun folks, but most of them involve sloppy thinking which real life tends to contradict. When it comes down to it, the vast majority of you reading this are the average joe. There's no point in saying "Well the average person who owns a gun is more likely to get shot by it than shoot someone with it but that's not me" or "The average person who owns a gun is far more likely to use it or have it used in a family dispute than against a criminal, but that's not me", or "The average person on the street when they get scared and freak out is gonna pull out that gun and fire untill the mag is empty, but that's not me" - that is you folks. Despite what our lovely macho selves would all love to believe, few of us are soldiers, and most of us are prone to mistakes. At least in a society that is mostly gun free those mistakes are generally non-fatal.

I agree with almost all of this, and nothing I've said up untill now has disagreed with it. Not sure I agree with the last sentence though. You can't actually 100% guarentee that the guy would have stabbed Phe to death and then mugged him. The guy probably just wanted a cigarette real bad and then got pissed off when he wasn't given one and lashed out. One has to be careful not to just lump all "bad" people into one big catagory of evil-doing automaton.

 

To all the gun lovers.

Fighting fear with fear is not the answer.
If you carry a gun they have already won.

 

Where's Robocop these days?, He'd be fine if you sprayed him in fluoresent paint to fit in with the youth of today.

 

Yes, but if you have a gun, and you see someone using a gun, you can stop them.

Another point, it's pretty easy getting hold of a gun nowadays if you need one and know the right people.

 

Good grief - 5 pages just coz I got slashed! It's not that bad - so I'll have a scar, but it will be just one of many, and it could have been a lot worse.

And in case anybody wonders, I believe in the 2nd commendment and if living the US would be a gun owner, but not a gun carrier.

Thanks for the comments though, the debate has been interesting!

EDIT - think I meant 2nd amendment. Been one of those kinda days!

 

Our new slogan should read:

"Bit-tech forums - breeding Nazis since 2002!"

Where the hell's nexxo anyway?

 

And just who are you accusing of being a nazi in this thread woof82?

 

OK, Godwin's law, so a nice lock on this thread and be done. It can't end differently then a trainwreck

 

You shall have no other guns before me?

Unless he stops you first. Or maybe each one of you thought the other was the mythical Bad Guy, while the real bad guy was hiding around the corner watching the two heroes shoot each other.

-monkey

 

seconded.

 

You really have not understood the point i am making.

 

Could have been worse. Could have been across the face.

 

Nexxo's staying well out of this one. I've done the gun debate until blue in the face (mostly raising the same arguments spec raises now). But I think there is something inherently contradictory about trying to reason with someone who sees guns as a valid way to prevent or resolve conflict.

In the end, people will believe what they want to believe. Gun ownership is a bit like SLI. If they want it, they want it, and they will rationalise the reasons for it afterwards regardless of the evidence for its uselessness. E-peen, gun-peen, it's all the same dynamic.

 

Shooting someone dead even if they tried to stab you would be overkill to be fair. Shooting them in the kneecap however, I'd be fine with. But of course, its better with no guns around at all.

If it was me though, and they tried to stab/slash me, and I managed to disarm them then I'd break a bone/dislocate a joint to ensure they'd be subdued when I called the police, or at the very least would be picked up at the hospital.