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So, where IS Osama Bin Laden...

Discussion in 'Serious' started by modgodtanvir, 9 Nov 2008.

  1. modgodtanvir

    modgodtanvir Prepare - for Mortal Bumbat!

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    Hopefully if Obama's withdrawal goes through, the world's agenda will be shifted back to trying to teach Afghanistan how wrong it is for not having Western ideals.

    And it brings us back to a question which everyone was asking about seven years ago. 'Where the hell is Osama Bin Laden?'.

    To me, it always came across as a humorous 'Catch the Pigeon' situation. A group of scruffy bearded men scampering about in the countryside, hiding from burly Americans in tanks. I sometimes wondered if they had a secret cave, equipped like a luxurious penthouse suite, complete with swimming pool and nuclear missile silo, or if they had managed to run across to neighboring Uzbekistan to begin new lives as timid cattle farmers...

    But of late, it is beyond a joke. AFAIK, he was some dude hired by the US during the Gulf War, got angry when the US decided to occupy his country as well. Then, he randomly masterminded a number of attacks, one in 1993 and the next in 2001.

    He is apparently an avid maker of home-movies, and likes leaving tapes scattered across different countries in hope that American troops find them and broadcast them on TV. As of late, I think his camcorder has broken, as he keeps releasing audio tapes - I presume recording equipment is scarce in the mountains. For a small fee, he'll let you attend summer training camps, where you can breath the fresh mountain air and learn how to make home videos and bombs and guns, and how to evade pursuit for nearly a decade, with nothing but a rusty old AK, a turban and a bag of opiates.

    Seriously. If the western world really has the military technology it is rumored to have, Bin Laden would have been found in 10 days. The army of Bangladesh could have found him in 2 years, simply by scouring the country on foot. But why is it that since he allegedly blew up the Twin Towers in 2001, Osama Bin Laden has remained a wanted man?

    Something tells me that Universal Studios has had a role somewhere along the line...
     
  2. yodasarmpit

    yodasarmpit No longer the other Brett.

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    Most likely in the second biggest terrorist sponsoring country, Pakistan.
    Bold statement I know, however Pakistan is a safe haven for Islamic extremists and is most likely to be so for some time, it also offers reliantly safe passage into Afghanistan.
     
    Last edited: 9 Nov 2008
  3. Cthippo

    Cthippo Can't mod my way out of a paper bag

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    First off, a couple of factual corrections. Bin Ladin is a Saudi, related to one of the richest families in the Kingdom. He was associated with the US because we were supporting him against the Soviets during the time they were occuping Afganistan. Bin Ladin's big complaint against the United States is that we occupied Saudi Arabia during Gulf War 1. He is equally pissed at the Saudi government for allowing us to be there that Saddam for giving us a reason to be there (hence why the supposed 9/11-Iraq connection is so asinine).

    That said, I question whether Bin Ladin ever spent much time in the tribal reigions of Pakistan. My understanding is that he suffers from Kidney failure and requires dialysis at least once a week. I doubt there are too many kidney dialysis machines in caves in Afganistan, much less places to plug them in. Pakistan is a good guess, as is Saudi Arabia, with or without the knowledge of the government in both cases. Yemen is another possibility, though with the kind of resources at his disposal, he coule be living almost anywhere in the Arab world.
     
  4. supermonkey

    supermonkey Deal with it

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    He's probably in Crawford, Texas, washing dishes in Dubya's kitchen. :p

    -monkey
     
  5. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    No, he is sharing an apartment with Elvis Presley, Jimmy Hoffa and Salman Rushdie. He doesn't get on with Salman though.

    Osama was never on Bush' agenda. He had oil to conquer, you know?
     
  6. naokaji

    naokaji whatever

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    QFT, they never actually wanted to find him, or they would have went looking for him in Saudi Arabia, not Iraq.

    It's common sense, where does a Sick old Millionaire hang out?

    a) A Cave in a Country that is under constant Bombardment by the "enemy" where there is no comfort, security or a proper hospital?
    or
    b) Enjoy life in some palace in the country he came from and where health care is readily avalaible?
     
  7. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    Exactly. Saudi Arabia is not our friend --never was. To them, we're just like the sleezy customers who buy the top shelf mags in the newsagents: we're a source of income, so he puts up with us. But he doesn't remotely like us.

    Osama will have enough friends over there who will host him discreetly and the government will look the other way.
     
  8. Squallers

    Squallers Meat Puppet

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    I concur, he's either in pakistan, saudi or dead. I think dead is a distinct possiblilty given his health problems but they're not letting on like the chinese did with chairman mao and i suspect the cubans may be doing, or plan to do, with castro (i have nothing to back this up it's just a hunch)
     
  9. boiled_elephant

    boiled_elephant Merom Celeron 4 lyfe

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    Sorry to gatecrash the party, but we found Osama in my college's laundromat last night. Someone had stuffed him into one of the driers. Detectives theorize he had been hiding in the sociology section of the university library, explaining his ability to go so many years without being found.
     
  10. 13eightyfour

    13eightyfour Formerly Titanium Angel

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    Maybe he just had a shave and nobodies noticed him :D
     
  11. Bauul

    Bauul Sir Bongaminge

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    I heard he's maskerading as a well known modding enthusiast website's forum bushy-eyebrowed mascot...
     
  12. cjmUK

    cjmUK Old git.

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    Who cares? He's not the problem and hasn't been for some time. You will notice that much of the terrorism these days is described as 'Al Qaeda-inspired' rather than 'Al Qaeda-led'

    The problem is with the tribes in Afghanistan, Waziristan and elsewhere in Pakistan, who support the Taliban. We know that some people are supporting the Taliban/Arab insurgents because it is a good way to take a swipe at the US and friends, but there are still too many people in that region that genuinely believe in what the Taliban stand for. Until these guys change their tune (and until Karzai pulls his finger out of his arse), the Taliban will still have safe haven.
     
  13. liratheal

    liratheal Sharing is Caring

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    He's on the moon. Setting fire to the American flag that's up there. Which is why he's been gone so long. He didn't pay attention during physics lessons.
     
  14. Cthippo

    Cthippo Can't mod my way out of a paper bag

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    So what do the Taliban stand for? Religious extreemism? Sure, but keep in mind that Afganistan is an essentially feudal nation in in these sorts of societies religion plays a far greater role than in western societies. I don't think anyone in Afganistan is going to rise up against the Taliban because they are too religious. What else does the Taliban stand for? How about nationalism, the belief that the Afgan people should determine their own government, not have one imposed by an invading army. Lots of people will go along with that. The Taliban, for all their faults, were also reasonably honest in their dealings with the people, as opposed to the current government which is rife with corruption and abuse of the populace. If the western powers and the Karzai government want to win the hearts and minds of the people, they need to realistically offer them a batter future than what the competition promises. The Taliban promises stability, security, and relatively honest government without foriegn occupation. So far "our" side has not been able to make a better offer and that is why the Taliban are winning.
     
  15. cjmUK

    cjmUK Old git.

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    A generous assessment!

    Stability - we are in charge and will always be in charge.
    Security - we will execute anyone who doesn't toe the line.
    Honesty - if you subject yourself to our rules, we will let you live. Except that you could barely call it living.

    The Taliban imposed an extreme, *anti-nationalist* and pashtun-centric 'Islamic' regime upon the majority, non-pashtuns. They weren't tapping into the popular mood at the time. The general populous were sick of the corrupt warlords but they certainly weren't keen on the Taliban.

    I agree with you that half of the Afghan government are corrupt, but then again, I don't think most of us westerners understand that this is common in some parts of the world. At a tribal level, you feather your nest and that of your tribe (family, friends, neighbours etc).

    And I'm damn sure that most rural Afghans want us out of there, but still many of the more educated urban Afghans (who are relatively safe) are loving the freedom.

    As for an imposed government, the Afghan elections in 2005 were relatively successful - out of 10m voters, nearly 9m voted and 55% voted for Karzai.

    Let's not romanticize the Taliban; they are cruel, backward movement, bred through ignorance and trading on the name of Islam.

     
  16. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    That is all well and good, but you are imposing your own Western values here.

    Let's look at Afghanistan geographically: mostly rugged mountains, with 12% arable land and 0.22% permanent crops. Damaging earthquakes occur in the Hindu Kush mountains; flooding and droughts everywhere else. People are poor there, and life is hard.

    Afghanistan does have natural wealth such as natural gas, petroleum, coal, copper, uranium, gold, silver, chromite, talc, barites, sulfur, lead, zinc, iron ore, salt, precious and semiprecious stones, but these all require a level of industry and technology that Afghanistan itself does not possess. As such it is vulnerable to exploitation by foreign powers. As a consequence, even only recent history has seen 30+ years of war waged by foreign invaders, and amongst tribal warlords who have been only too happy to make deals with said foreign invaders to further their own conquests.

    When the Mujahedin had kicked out the Soviet occupiers, civil war in-fighting resumed as usual --with aid of a stockpile of US weapons left over from the conflict with the Soviets:

    The Taliban arose against that backdrop in 1994. Its members came from madrassas set up by the Pakistani government along the border and funded by the U.S., Britain, and the Saudis, where they had received theological indoctrination and military training. Thousands of young men --refugees and orphans from the war in Afghanistan-- became the foot soldiers of this movement; a generation who had never seen their country at peace. They had no memories of their tribes, their elders, their neighbors nor the complex ethnic mix of peoples that made up their villages and their homeland. Fanatically fierce in battle, they drove out feuding warlords and removed checkpoints, made trading routes relatively safe again and brought some sort of stability to areas that used to be battlegrounds. Even the US liked them:

    I think it is not enough to justify the mess we are making in Afghanistan by pointing out how vile and backward the Taliban is. Sure, educated, well-off, city-dwelling Afghans love the freedom, but they are by far in the minority. What the poor, illiterate goat herd scrabbling together a meager existence in the harsh mountains wants most of all, is to be able to feed his family, have a roof over his head and not get killed or driven from his homestead by warring factions please. If Taliban rule is the price to pay for some sort of long-term stability, they'll pay it gladly because they hardly have any quality of life to lose in the first place.

    Time to stop pointing fingers at the bad guy, and offer their victims something substantially better so that the Taliban actually looks like a bad deal to them.
     
  17. cjmUK

    cjmUK Old git.

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    I realise that that the situation in Afghanistan is far, far from ideal, but I'm certainly not of the opinion that we are making the situation worse - in fact, the opposite. This is a familiar line from you; with Iraq, I'll grant you licence to make hay, but the same sentiments don't fit in here.

    Iraq is FUBAR and there is little debate about that, but the Afghan mission was different. It was supported by the UN and the wider international community, and I'm certainly of the opinion that is was the right thing to do. None of the participating nations want to be there, but currently they need to be there. They aren't omnipotent, but their presence there is the only thing keeping the country from falling entirely into Taliban hands and their presence their is the only thing that enables redevelopment work to be completed.

    People think that our presence there only in terms of troop numbers. The UN participants do provide troops but they are also providing money and resources to aid agencies and development contractors along with protection and logistical support.

    UN troops and aid workers are putting their lives on the line every day, in the hope that they can lift the country out of it's depths. Apart from providing troops with proper logistical support for a change, do you have any particular suggestions? I'd obviously love to hear them, but I reckon the UN are struggling to figure out how to make it all work - I'm sure they would be open to positive suggestions.

    It is traditionally stated that winning hearts and minds is the best way to pacify a native population, but the problem in Afghanistan is not that the indigenous population sees the troops as occupiers (like Iraq perhaps), but that they are tired of war. However, if the majority of them would prefer a stable but miserable existence under the Taliban, they had the opportunity to vote for different candidates or not vote at all. But the fact the majority of people voted, and the majority of them voted for Karzai, suggests that they think the status quo is the better of these two alternatives. Perhaps we should respect their view?

    Afghanistan is *not* another story of the ignorant, western, imperialist oppressor plundering a poor, islamic nation for it's resources - though you tried to hint as much in your third para. It was about removing an evil regime that provided safe harbour for our enemies - a somewhat selfish aim perhaps. Now? Now it is about strengthening a fledgeling nation sufficiently such that it has the power to prevent *its* enemies from taking over.
     
  18. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    I'm not saying that they should never have gone in, althjough the operation was an ill-thought-out knee-jerk response that, yes, was mainly for selfish reasons. If the Twin Towers had not fallen, Afghanistan would be a non-issue right now. And what have we achieved that will last, really? UK soldiers are dying because of lack of resources, and frankly when the budget runs dry and everybody pulls out because they have more pressing economical concerns at home, things will be back to usual within the year.

    How about working with Pakistan to cut off Taliban support from that direction? Unauthorised military action on Pakistan soil is hardly making us friends. Perhaps Pakistan would mellow slightly if it wasn't on a knife-edge with India, so here's another thought: what if the UK government stops flogging weapons to both sides in that conflict in its role as BAE's bitch?

    And then there's the Canadian approach: unlike the US, their army actually does not alienate its Muslim soldiers, but rather employs Canadian Muslim clerics to build relationships with the local elders and clerics. It's a slow approach but one that works. And it doesn't involve the accidental shelling of civilians.

    :hehe: If we did that we wouldn't have been involved the first place.

    The road to Hell is paved with good intentions. I'm sure we levered Saddam Hussein in power, and later out again, under the same pretexts. Military might simply does not cut the mustard here, especially since we seem unable to commit the resources properly. Perhaps if we stop alienating Middle Eastern countries and stop supplying others with military hardware for their in-fighting because we can make a buck out of it, it would create the conditions for them to work out a more gradual, stable, peaceful solution. With our history behind us, we simply lack the credentials and credibility.
     
  19. wolfticket

    wolfticket Downwind from the bloodhounds

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    He's probably down the back of a sofa. Most things I lose seem to end up down the back of my sofa.

    EDIT: I just realised this is filed under "serious". I apologise unreservedly :)
     
    Last edited: 11 Nov 2008
  20. yodasarmpit

    yodasarmpit No longer the other Brett.

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    You know that's never going to happen, Pakistan only joined the "War on Terror" as an avoidance to being invaded themselves. Pakistan and the Pakistani populous are, by all reasonable definition of the phrase, Anti- Western.

    Whilst Musharif was in power, however illegitimately, there was a chance of co-operation
    There was even a second chance, but Benazir Bhutto was assassinated and all hope was gone.

    I can't see a future for Pakistan in the current climate other than being a breeding ground for extremists, the moderates have been moved aside.


    As for arming both side, that's what we do best.
     

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