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Someone gets jailed - For racial comments made on twitter? What?

Discussion in 'Serious' started by GregTheRotter, 27 Mar 2012.

  1. Ending Credits

    Ending Credits Bunned

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    Congratulaions, you've managed to put in bold two statements which appear contradictory when taken out of context.

    Look, I've put hurty in bold so that means you are admitting words can be hurtful! Actually in a way this is less stupid as it seems as you seem to be saying these words have a potential to be hurtful but you personally choose not to be hurt by them (which we are all capable of) and this is what I mean. An insult from a person you hold in high regard and and choose to listen to can actually be quite painful. You might say that this is because of the meaning behind the words and I'd probably agree but I don't agree with the idea that words (in context) are impotent.

    I should point out that I very much agree with the OP however I want to express a view that I believe that there are cases where the right to freedom of speech is used as a substitute for physical agression and intimidation and that I disagree with the notion that words cannot be powerful.

    This sums up what I am trying to say quite well actually.
     
  2. Joey Propane

    Joey Propane New Member

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    Considering he (apparently) had only 60-odd followers I can't imagine he did, no....
     
  3. Krazeh

    Krazeh Well-Known Member

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    You know what got me confused? For a second I thought we were in the serious forum where people might actually post seriously. My bad. Or to take a slightly less sarcastic tone, if you post something in the serious forum expect it to be taken seriously. Want to make 'funny' comments about topics then the general forum would probably be the place for you.
     
  4. Comfyasabadger

    Comfyasabadger New Member

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    Apologise, I may not have the best grasp of putting my thoughts down on paper but you can at least assume some modicum of intelligence in the serious forum.
    Yes this is the serious forum, but we could at least allow a little light-heartedness.

    Anyway I digress.
     
  5. Porkins' Wingman

    Porkins' Wingman Can't touch this

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    Au contraire. I'm pointing out that it hasn't happened, inferring that the reason it hasn't happened is because no-one is capable of hurting me with words.

    What you then go on to talk about is exactly what I was on about in my first post in this thread - the words aren't hurtful, it's the fact that somebody doesn't like you that hurts you. The words are just a medium for communicating that dislike.

    Take, for example, a complete stranger like this Liam guy saying something disparaging about you. Presumably you would see that he doesn't know you and that anything he thinks or communicates about you is therefore irrelevant. Then along comes your best friend and says exactly the same thing, using exactly the same words. Your world falls apart around you. Would it be right therefore to lock up your best friend for saying those words but letting Liam walk free? Or should they both be locked up for using the words, even though Liam's words did no harm whatsoever?

    Let's say the love of your life, married for 10 years, in love since the age of 14, three beautiful kids etc. comes up to you and says, "I've been having an affair for 12 years" :jawdrop: Oh man, that's gotta hurt, eh?
    Is it the word 'affair' that hurts, or is it the realisation that everything you thought was great in your life is rotten to the core?
     
  6. Shirty

    Shirty Time travelling rogue Super Moderator

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    The Moral Maze this evening on Radio 4 will be very relevant to this thread if anyone's interested. Just after 8.
     
  7. Ending Credits

    Ending Credits Bunned

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    I think the difference in opinion here is caused by differences in the way we're defining words. I agree with you in priciple, at least, however words don't cause harm by themselves in the way that guns don't cause harm by themselves and a small word choice can have a big change in consequences. Words are powerful because we imbue them wih power as a society and this is a very real power.
     
  8. Nexxo

    Nexxo Queue Jumper

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    But it is a power imbued. We have a choice not to.
     
  9. whisperwolf

    whisperwolf New Member

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    I'm quoting to follow on from a point not to direct this question at you directly. Insults and "banter" might not be hurtful in anyway other than if we let them, but do we have to draw lines against freedom of speech and freedom to post. What if someone creates a site listing your children's names, addresses, zoomed photos, travel schedule, after school activities and the message "I'm going to bathe in their blood", do we dismiss this this as freedom of speech or do we take proactive measures against harm befalling them? to a degree they haven't hurt anyone , yet, have they committed a crime. Works the same for terrorism, we keep hearing of people arrested for planing a terror event, are they, until they actually press the button, just actioning their freedom of speech?
     
  10. Nexxo

    Nexxo Queue Jumper

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    Expression of thought != action.
     
  11. GregTheRotter

    GregTheRotter New Member

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    Well said.
     
  12. Porkins' Wingman

    Porkins' Wingman Can't touch this

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    Well what you've described would be sufficient evidence to justify an arrest for conspiracy to murder, but the words you've suggested are not hurtful, they just add to the conspiracy case. The freedom of speech is not an issue here.
     
  13. whisperwolf

    whisperwolf New Member

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    But as Nexxo pointed out Expression of thought != action. they've not attempted, tried and quite possibly have no intention to follow through on the site/note/whatever. Surely arresting them for that note or site is a violation of their freedom of speech, they are just expressing themselves. we've put limits on it.

    Its one of the hardest issues I find with wanting freedom of speech, I find that freedom should be used for discourse without fear of oppression, not for abuse, threats or out and out lies. but I can't really argue to stop any of it.
     
  14. Porkins' Wingman

    Porkins' Wingman Can't touch this

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    You can arrest someone for suspecting an offence. The scenario suggested gives reasonable grounds for suspecting a conspiracy to murder. Once under arrest you investigate until you've got sufficient evidence to charge or otherwise. If intention can be proven then a conspiracy offence exists. This does not encroach on freedom of speech in any way.

    If I steal a car and then write on the internet that I stole a car, arresting me for stealing the car has no bearing on my freedom of speech. Just because I'm free to say it, doesn't mean I'm free to do it. The evidence of me writing on the internet that I stole the car could be used as evidence against me without encroaching upon my freedom of speech. Why should conspiracy be any different?
     
  15. Ending Credits

    Ending Credits Bunned

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    Not when that power is bestowed by society at largehereupon we take note of this so I would argue it is simply counterproductive to ignore it. What people can, and do, choose to ignore is the individuals and individual episodes but the actual meanings and connotations of words remains in our consciousness. If words did not have at least some power then we could not use them to communicate.

    What I do agree with is that we all have a capability of ignoring words said to us if we judge them to be invalid but this does not mean that words are irrellevant. Frankly the idea that this man is being sent to jail for something he has said on the internet is abhorrent to me and I am suprised more people aren't similarly outraged but I do believe it is possible to use words in a way that deliberately causes harm in a way that the victim cannot avoid, just that this case is not one one of them.

    There is no conspiracy to murder, the assailant is publishing that information becausehe finds it funny. Should he be allowed to do so? What if it was just the names and the message "I'm going to bathe in their blood"?
     
  16. Porkins' Wingman

    Porkins' Wingman Can't touch this

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    IMO, yes of course it should be allowed in both instances. But in the case of the first instance, you would wonder how/why the person had gone to the effort of gathering all that info (such as travel schedule) just for the lulz as it is a little incongrous.
     
  17. andreinuk

    andreinuk Active Member

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    Must admit that the sentence was a surprise. I agree that the guy was a complete tool but I don't see how it warranted what has happened.

    Yes at times peoples comments can be distasteful and disrespectful but we should be able to recognise these for what they are. Stupid inane comments and nothing more.

    As for racism and racial hatred, in my own opinion there is too much emphasis by the media, politicians, etc about it. The way I see things is we are all one race, the human race. Simple.

    What I see lacking in our society is respect for one another. Respect for opinions different to our own.

    As for him being kicked out of uni, they probably found that he used the university network to access twitter and used that as it probably against some policy of theirs and they don't want to lose any of the funds they make from non uk students if they were perceived to be a uni with "racist" students.
     
  18. CarlT2001

    CarlT2001 New Member

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    I think the guy going to prison is a reflection of the current state of the ever evolving internet versus the aged law system.
    Things need to change it seems.
     
  19. alf-

    alf- Member

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    Do we intend to pursue and imprison everyone who makes comments like Liams?, if so i think we may need more prisons...

    More likely it will be reserved for people like muamba, Maddie mccan, "our boys", basically the "victims" who the media like to put upon Pedestal for people to fawn over.

    if someone made comments like Liam Staceys about me, can i expect the same level of service?
    i hope so, someone said some mean thing about me and i'm really really upset :'c :'c
    and the only thing that will make me feel better is wasting taxpayer money, police time and the courts time going after these nasty people.
     
    Shirty likes this.
  20. whisperwolf

    whisperwolf New Member

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    is going to the bother of getting a travel schedule any more difficult these days than hacking websites, and how often is that done "just for lulz"?
    how about defamation of character, be it slander or libel, where someone can mount a consistent campaign against an individual or business, perhaps they don't like someone in the area so create several unlinked sites, leave forum posts, write to newspapers to "informing the local populous of a paedophile", leaving it to mob justice to sort their issues out.
     

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