Other source for sodiumchlorate (natriumchloraat)

Discussion in 'General' started by alpaca, 30 May 2010.

  1. alpaca

    alpaca llama eats dremel

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    We used to make a kind of fast burning fireworks (Dutch = bengaals vuur, literally: belgal fire) for light effects at our scouts.:rock:

    We used to do that with sugar and herbicide (with sodiumchlorate) as oxidizer.

    In 2008 the european union banned herbicides with sodiumchlorate.:grr:
    Last year, we used gasoline. But i think gasoline is way, way to dangerous, compared to a non volatile powder that doesn't ignite with a spark.:eeek:

    So my question is: is there a good alternative (either another way to find sodiumchlorate cheaply, or another readily available oxidizer)?

    Mind you, I live in Belgium. So while I appreciate anyone looking up his local chemicals provider, i don't really have a use for an American company...:D

    Alpaca
     
  2. Edge102030

    Edge102030 Son, i am disappoint.

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    Fast burning firework you say:D? Try filing something aluminum down a bit and add some iron rust and make a mixed pile of the stuff, this **** will burn fast and is self oxidizing, screw sugar and herbicide, try thermite. Below is thermite in action in my class last year, the very bright white light before the ignition of the thermite is the magnesium required to light the thermite.

     
    Last edited: 30 May 2010
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  3. alpaca

    alpaca llama eats dremel

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    hmm. impressive:p thanks for the hint.

    i'll go try it out. ideas to ignite it without magnesium (or, alternatively, a source of magnesium?)
     
  4. Edge102030

    Edge102030 Son, i am disappoint.

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    Hmm, although intended as a joke (thermite is used to weld rail tracks together, extremely hot and is impossible to put out) i think you could probably light it with a blow torch. I'd suggest you keep well away from it while it is burning though.

    If you're looking for something exciting i'll upload another video taken in the same lesson which gives some very interesting results and it isn't particularly dangerous or at all hard to achieve.




    EDIT
    Ok, uploaded the video. This is just some soapy water in a tray, which the teacher has made gas bubbles in by putting a pipe from the bunsen taps into the water for about 15 seconds til some good bubbles have been made. Then all the teacher has to do is toss a match and it ignites with spectacular results.


     
    Last edited: 30 May 2010
  5. capnPedro

    capnPedro Hacker. Maker. Engineer.

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    Potassium nitrate is widely available in garden centres, but it isn't a very powerful oxidising agent.

    What about ammonium chloride? Should be available from farm suppliers or in small amounts as a soldering iron tip cleaner.
     
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  6. Moriquendi

    Moriquendi Bit Tech Biker

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    I remember when the world was young and innocent, when you could walk into a chemist and buy chemicals for blowing sh*t up and the only question you'd be asked was "Solution or crystals?"

    I think pretty much any oxidiser you buy these days will have a fire retardant in. Thermite is fun and you should be able to find magnesium ribbon on ebay, thermite is dangerous stuff however so play safe.

    Moriquendi
     
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  7. Smilodon

    Smilodon The Antagonist

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    Cut a soda bottle in half, but some copper ring in the center of the bottom half (inside bottle). Then find a larger aluminum ring (crumpled aluminum foil works well) and put it outside the copper (they must NOT touch each other). Find two wires and connect them to the rings.

    Now you just glue the bottle together (Make sure it's airtight, and is able to handle a slight pressure. Try blowing in the bottle. No air should escape.), Fill the bottle with salt water and put a balloon over the bottleneck. Apply DC current to the wires and wait for the balloon to inflate.


    When it's inflated, tie the opening and tape a fuse to the balloon surface. Light and let go (OUTDOORS!)





    The reaction in the bottle will make hydrogen and oxygen which is very flammable. If you want to make it even more complicated you could make two chambers for the electrodes to separate the hydrogen and oxygen. IIRC hydrogen forms at the negative pole.
     
  8. alpaca

    alpaca llama eats dremel

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    Thanks for the replies!; I got to experiment a bit.

    First i tried the alu-rust mix. I found it impossible to ignite.:(
    I even used those:
    [​IMG]
    Then i tried a sugar-ammonium chloride (from a soldering cleaning stone) mix. Both grounded down to a fine powder and mixed thoroughly. I used a few mixtures (1:1, 2:3, 3:2) but i couldn't ignite any of them. When touched by a flame or blowtorch (or the little fireworks like the one in the picture), it did turn black and form a hard crust.

    I'm buying some mg ribbon now. Any further suggestions? (Still searching for something we could ignite with a torch, as we used to do, for effect)
     
  9. D-Cyph3r

    D-Cyph3r Gay for Yunosuke

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    I wonder how many government databases this thread has been flagged on. :p
     
  10. Sir Digby

    Sir Digby The Supprising Adventures

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    We've done this in college, but holding the froth in our hands which is a bit more fun. Provided you wet your hands before holding the froth it's safe but... very hard to do a convincing hadouken with :sigh:
     
  11. Jumeira_Johnny

    Jumeira_Johnny 16032 - High plains drifter

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    Sparklers aren't going to work, sorry.

    First you need to be sure you used Iron oxide, not just flaky crap from metal. Attach an iron nail to the positive wire of a 9 volt battery. Now put the negative wire on the other end. Immerse into a glass of saltwater. Now let it sit overnight and in the morning scrape the rust off of the nail & repeat until you have a bunch of rust on the bottom of the glass. Let it dry out, and crush it into a powder.

    Second, both the iron oxide and the alu need to be powered, not flakes. You really need to grind them fine. Use 8 grams of iron oxide and 3 of the alu. Combine thoroughly. It will look like a 50/50 mix. (if you want to be able to mold it, make a mix with any hobby clay, heavy on the metal mix.)
    I recomend playing with small amounts, since once lit, it won't extinguish. Start with a bottle cap full on the ground.

    Third, you need to use high temperature magnesium fire starters. These are available from camping stores in solid or paste form. I usually use paste, since it lets you get a little more distance from the ignition.

    This mix burns hot. Once lit it's near impossible to extinguish. It will burn through things, fast. Do not use it indoors. Do not pack into containers of any kind. Do not use anywhere other then on the ground. People often forget to think about what is under the burn. Commercial/military grade thermite will burn through a safe in minutes. Just think before you use this stuff.
     
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  12. alpaca

    alpaca llama eats dremel

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    sparklers are Magnesium based; so i thought i could give it a shot. I am sure i used iron oxide, and both the alu and rust where a very fine powder. However, they were in a 1:1 and not 8:3 mix.

    i ordered some magnesium ribbon form ebay. i hope it will start using that.

    thank you for the hints. and yes, i promise i will exercise caution.
     

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