No different from Southern US states wanting people to speak English instead of Spanish, or the UK wanting people to speak English instead of Shiletti/Urdu/Whatever. When in Rome, learn to speak Italian. It is just common sense.
I understand from a cultural viewpoint but shouldn't something like this be in a job description before they apply? If not, then the company should fork out for lessons.
I really should disagree with this, but i find myself understanding why they are opting for this afterall people all speaking to each other in the same language allows employees to get to know each other and relate better.
I agree entirely with the auto company. If dutch is the common language then it is rude to start speaking in a language few others understand. Out on the street or in your home then fine, but in the workplace you have to think of the people you work with. Ramble: Fork out for 120 employees to have lessons learning several languages each ? There would be firings and rehirings faster than you can say "hey look, we might get fired for demanding lessons in french, italian, english etc etc". Im sure a real excuse for firing them could be found or made up somehow.
I'm happy that speaking Dutch is a requirement of the job... providing it's written into the contract at the time of the appointment. I also have sympathy for the idea of adopting the rule at an arbitrary point, but only if sufficient support was given to employees (i.e. tutoring) and that it couldn't be a sackable offence for employees who didn't have such a clause expressly in their contract. I also would have thought there would be a restriction on discounting French since it's the majority language in the country. Either way, I'd be keen for the company to handle it with sensitivity rather than use it as a stick with which to beat people.
No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Around 4 to 4.5 million people in Belgium speak French. 6 to 6.5 million speak Flemish (or Dutch, its nowadays PC name). This misconception really pisses me off, though I can't blame you. The majority of the Belgians speak Dutch as a native language, not French. In regards to this company... when I was still living in Flanders (which is the northern, Dutch-speaking, rich part of the country which is constantly raped by Belgium) I would have agreed completely without even thinking about it. However, now I'm living and working in the UK, in a company with a lot of non-UK people, including two other Flemings. The joys of speaking your own language are indescribable. A few days ago, however, I had a conversation with a guy working at the same company who's from the Netherlands. We didn't speak Dutch, but English, because there was also a German standing about. Out of politeness, we spoke English... and I felt weird about it. But, there must be respect, and it's extremely weird to be around two people who speak a language you do not understand. So, personally, I try to limit it. I speak Flemish with the Flemings and Dutch with the Dutchies when there are no English/German/French people around. If they are, we speak English, so everybody can hear what we say. It still feels weird, but it's the only way to go if you want to show you respect your colleagues, your company and most importantly the country in which you are a guest. Henceforth, even if it's not in the contract, I agree with this Belgian company - as long as the employees get warned before getting sacked, so they know they should speak Dutch instead of whatever language they grew up with. According to political correctness, we are all "equal" - in reality that means that foreigners get more rights than the country's own citizens. As an immigrant to the UK I absolutely refuse to get on that boat, and I will do everything to be "a perfect immigrant" - adjusted to the culture (admittedly, not very different from my own, and I gladly participate in the binge drinking), speaking the language, showing respect and gratitude (without, of course, kissing the feet of every Briton), and not trying to impose my own language or beliefs upon anyone. Hell, I think a lot of immigrants in Europe can learn from me. I'm awesome. On a less awesome note, I wouldn't be surprised if this CEO guy was sued by the Belgian "Centre for equal opportunities and the fight against racism" and the government (which is basically the same, as the Centre is funded by the gov't)... for "racism", which is the new "ZOMG WITCH!!!!111one" as it was in the middle ages.
There are a lot in the world who could learn a lot from you. I think the company is in the right on this one too. I live in an area with quite a few Asian immigrants and it's really frustrating to see so many shops with nothing but Chinese, Japanese and Taiwanese signage only. They've ecluded me from their services (isn't my money any good?) because I can't tell what each store is. If I stuck my head in each store I'm sure I could work it out but isn't that the whole point of signs in the first place? I'm exluded from the community and I was born in this city [/RANT]
Yeah I see where you're getting at. They live/work in an other country, so they should learn the language the people speak in that particular country. And I do find it frustrating aswell, to sometimes see shops with nothing but foreign language written on the windows. Nothing we can do about it I guess (P.S. I'll be staying in Brisbane from the 21st of december till the 4th of january this year :wub: aussies)
I haven't seen that in Belgium or the UK, though I'm sure such shops exists in these countries as well... it's pure discrimination in my book - delibaretely excluding a part of the population by using a language only another part of that population understands. The last years I lived in Belgium, a nightshop opened near me, owned and operated by a few Pakistani/Indian (never dared to ask because I didn't want to offend them... my previous job in private security taught me that those two don't like eachother too much) guys. They all did their best to speak my language and serve their customers - whether Flemish or any other nationality - to the best of their ability. And for this respect shown to me (trying and trying to speak my language) I reciprocated by sometimes trying to make clear what I wanted to ask with signs and pointing. All of their advertisements on the walls and windows, all their signs about the ages to which sell alcohol and cigarettes were in Flemish. They tried and were never happy with their trying, they expected more from themselves but couldn't (yet) deliver more because of the huge differences between the Germanic Flemish/Dutch language and their own Asian-bred language (i.e. it's easier for a German to learn Dutch than it is for a Pakistani, because of the common, ancient language that German and Dutch both come from). Immigrants should adapt to their host country, NOT the other way around. Never effing never should English people adapt to my customs, my language, or my way of dress (as spiffy as it may be). Never should they accept me sporting my nationalist symbols on my clothing (which I don't, by the way). In a foreign country you behave properly. You speak THEIR language, you behave to the standards THEY expect and you act in accordance with THEIR law. And in my case, you use their qwerty keyboard and often get pissed off at the placement of the letter "m". Either way, I believe that so-called political correctness is killing our nations and our people. I love Europe and I will never leave it, but some crazed fundamentalist muslim in Italy once said that "your [our, eh] democracies will cause the end of democracy". And it is true. As much as I like tolerance, we must not be too tolerant if we don't want to cause the death of our way of life, as decadent and spiteful it may be from time to time. It is our way of life, it is what we were born in, what we live in, and what I will die defending if need be (but I am an angry drunk who is plagued by childhood traumas ).
This is the accepted practice at e.g. international conferences. You speak the language everyone can understand. In Deaf mental health, the hearing staff also sign when there are deaf staff or clients around, even if they are not taking part in the discussion. Would be rude not to. You are. I feel the same. I came to the UK from Holland, speaking the English language fluently. I worked from day one and pay my taxes. I respect local laws and custom, and contribute to society. I expect no benefits or special considerations just because I am a foreigner. When meeting countrymen in English company, we speak English. I have no maudling sentimentality for my home country --it is no better than the UK, else why would I be over here? Nevertheless, let's not forget how our lives have been enriched by the introduction of other cultures; their food, their dress, their philosophies. It is about inclusion and integration of different cultures, rather than exclusion and marginalisation. What ethnic minorities don't always want to see or admit is that such processes go both ways.
Obviously I applaud your attitude. But as much as I would encourage you (or anyone else) to 'fit in', I'd hate to see you be completely 'assimilated' (a la The Borg). Personally I would have been happy for you to bring some Dutch culture across here - God knows we could learn a lesson or two from abroad. As much as I dislike those, who come to live here permanently, yet refuse to learn how to integrate, I'd also regard it as a missed opportunity if all immigrants were forced to be clones of us natives. [A bit rich, perhaps, when you consider the stereotype of the typical British emmigrant.] Thank goodness that the waves of Asian immigrants who have arrived here over the last 50 years hadn't all decided to eat mashed potatoes and mince. Where would we be without curry?? But I would expect permanent residents to speak the national language at work, and in public forums (in hospitals, at the local council offices, at the police station etc). One final question... are you still a foreigner? As an EU citizen for a start, but also as someone who seems to be well-integrated, are you still a foreigner? You may not have ceased to be Dutch, but I'm not sure you are a foreigner. Your passport will hold the official answer, but it certainly sounds like you have 'gone native'. Khensu: Where the f*ck is the M on a Belgian keyboard? I thought most/all of Europe used QWERTY as well (albeit with subtle variations)?
True, I advocate integration rather than assimilation just for that reason. I also think that marginalisation/separation actually prevents people from experiencing and learning from other cultures as much as assimilation does. My cultural identity is a bit of a fuzzy question... although my nationality is Dutch, I am mixed race and about 16 nationalities can be found in the last five generations of my ancestry. I have decidedly Dutch cultural traits, but also Carribean ones, and have adopted some British habits as well (and married a British wife). Culturally I feel most at home in the Mediterranean, although I was not born or raised there. Go figure. My wife feels the same way. I do not see myself as British, but neither did I see myself as Dutch when in Holland. I think "European" is probably the closest fit, athough I am probably "Mediterranean" at heart. Having grown up being "too white for my carribean family, too black for my white family", I've learned to not take all this cultural identity stuff too much to heart, and am quite comfortable with just being me. Don't know about the "M" on Belgian keyboards, but the Germans have "AZERTY" keyboards, with the Q and Z having exchanged positions.
I understand that a QWERTY keyboard is designed as such to distribute the letters such that the most common letters are spread across all each finger location - to enable touch-typists to type quicker without tying their fingers in knots. Fair enough. Seems to make sense that since difference nations use different letters more often... But...[dons knotted handkerchief]... it just seems wrong... eugh! Incidentally, I used to have to support a typing pool around 12 years ago... and they used maltron keyboards. It would takes ages for us buffoons to day *anything*. Some wouldn't even have a mouse installed - didn't like 'em. Edit: Why don't we just standardise on English and Qwerty worldwide? It would simplify many issues, not least what language to speak in Belgium. And it would piss the Welsh and French off entirely - a worthy goal if ever there was one.
The QUERTY keyboard was actually designed to slow typists down, the letters most commonly used together being spaced furthest apart. The reason was that a decent typist could achieve speeds much higher than the mechanical typewriter could cope with: the typebars did not get enough time to fall back into their cradle before the next one rose to the platen, causing them to tangle up. The advent of electrical typewriters with a typeball (or "element") resolved this issue; however a decent typist could still flood the buffer, typing faster than the typewriter could position the ball to the platen. This was particlarly true with Telex machines which were additionally slowed by the fact that they could only push the serially encoded characters down the wire at a limited speed of about 66 characters per second. A good typist therefore did not necessarily make a good telex operator, who would be able to type at exactly that speed of 66 strokes per minute to keep throughput optimal.
From immigration to keyboard layouts... Nice Cpemma answered the M-question already, so I'll skip that one and go straight to... Amen. It's odd to hear a Dutch guy say something good, though. That's right, I went there. Sue me
No bashing the dutch Psst, you know why the dutch are so tall? Because we like to have our heads above sealevel But seriously, want I hate about dutch keyboards: all the special characters are in the wrong place.
