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Films Star Wars - HUGE SPOILERS INSIDE. DO NOT ENTER IF YOU'VE NOT SEEN THE FILM

Discussion in 'General' started by The_Crapman, 22 Jan 2016.

  1. The_Crapman

    The_Crapman Don't phone it's just for fun.

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    Thought I'd get a thred open where we can discuss the new film openly without all that spoiler malarky.

    My review of the force awakens was rather scathing. Lets just remind ourselves what that was like:
    I was asked to expand on my gripes with the film and I can do that here now without fear of the ban hammer. ;) Not all of these are 'plot holes', some are overly convenient coincidences that are just a bit lame etc. I've only seen it once and have no real knowledge of the star wars universe outside of the films so feel free to correct me if I've missed something or got anything completely wrong.

    # Rey admits to having never piloted a ship before, then strolls into the falcon, know exactly where all the right buttons are to get going then out manoeuvres 2 trained tie fighter pilots in a far bigger craft.
    # Han and chewie just happened to be strolling past at the time to pick them up. "I told you we should have checked there". Mmmmyeh. Ok.
    # Lukes lightsaber just happens to be at Maz's for Rey to find.
    # On that note, how the fudge has a lightsaber 'called to her' then given her a vision. Thought that bit was all a bit weak.
    # Rey doesn't even believe the force is real until meeting Han and has had no training in it's use, but then when being interrogated by Ren she manages to resist his mind reading and goes as far as reversing it.
    # Then despite never seeing anyone perform the Jedi mind trick, she just goes for it and pulls it off.
    # Han, chewie and fin crash the falcon an absolute country away from their target, I mean literally a country, yet manage to walk hundreds of miles through snow like linford Christie on speed.
    # There's only 1 single room to operate the shields and no one is monitoring it anywhere else to notice they've been taken down.
    # Rey beats Ren in a straight up fight with no training in combat, lightsabers or the force, having just discovered these things within the last, what 48 hours or so? she just suddenly feels the force charge her up like goku powering straight up the ss3 by accident from a sneeze at the beginning of the freeza saga.

    On the death star mk3, yes I know it's sci-fi, but the operation of the weapon leaves a lot to be desired, I'm also not a physicist but have an interest in science.
    #the shields are down yet the massive amounts of heat and radiation don't remove the atmosphere killing everyone and everythin outside?
    #it eats a whole star. A whole frickin star! I was impressed with the method at first, until they on it needs a whole star. Just no. The gravitational forces involved would be astonomical, everything on there would be crushed
    #the destruction of the star killer (?) would surely result in a super nova type explosion, not the reformation of the star.

    On the prepubescent bad guys, yes Ren would be in his very late teens early 20's, but casting such a baby faced, clean little girl? He should have been a bit rough round the edges at least. And why is he even alive? Luke is training new jedi's, Ren goes dark and starts killing the rest, a repeat of what happened with annakin. Luke would not want to see what happened with his dad happen again and he would have killed him.

    The other guy, far far far to young to have such a high position. I'm not saying he should be old and grey, but late 30's, 40's at least. He's not going to hold command of people. And why the hell is Ren not choking that **** out when he's giving him lip? Vader would never have stood for that. Yes i get that he's in a struggle with his conscious over turning to the dark side, but he wouldn't care about him.

    And how effective will Ren be as an imposing bad guy when he's already had his ass handed to him by a noob!?

    There's probably more but I can't think and that's probably enough for now. lol
     
  2. Porkins' Wingman

    Porkins' Wingman Can't touch this

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    I liked the film much more the second time I saw it. I suspect you might too, if you can let go of some of your less realistic expectations of what Star Wars films should be like.

    I'm not trying to convince you it's a better film than you've so far assessed it as, but just trying to help you adjust your perspective on it a bit, given that you've only seen it once. I don't give Star Wars films scores, they are on their own plane; to me they're not films, they're just Star Wars. I didn't think this film was going to meet my standards and me be able to consider it real Star Wars, but I do now.
     
  3. TheBlackSwordsMan

    TheBlackSwordsMan Pig Assault!

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    The plot is happening in a galaxy far far away where technology is more advanced and scientist are smarter. If the Gungans managed to built energy shield that can deflect blasters...how far behind are we ?
     
  4. RedFlames

    RedFlames ...is not a Belgian football team

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    Star War has always been at the 'It just does...' end of science fiction, up there with the like of Doctor Who.

    Though I'd wager that if has got to the point where you're picking at the feasibility of the science/tech, then the film just isn't doing it for you.
     
  5. The_Crapman

    The_Crapman Don't phone it's just for fun.

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    Yeh I'm picking holes in it because I'm so dam pissed off that it's just a remake of a new hope. I'm shocked that more people aren't annoyed that they've been so god dam lazy with the story.

    Droid with important information on ends up desert planet. Droid picked up by protagonist, evil guys come looking for it, escape on the falcon. There's a 'cantina' seen in both, only in tfa it's after escaping on the falcon, not before. Bad guys have gigantic weapon that can blow up a planet, blow up 1 (or a few in tfa) then they get ready to come after the rebels. Rebels have to go take it out along with rescuing someone who's been captured and tortured. They go in, rescue the chick, someone dies, x-wings fly down trench and blow it up. The end

    IT'S THE SAME GOD DAM FILM!!!

    Porkins - the stuff about the force is just plain wrong. Look at what Luke had to go through just to be a Jedi, he couldn't do naff all at the end of a new hope and he had obi wan as a mentor! His progression through his jedi training was long and tough but she just goes oh the force is real is it? Yeh I'll just do all that stuff with no prior knowledge of any of it. B O L L O C K S. If that were the case Leia would be a total badass Jedi! Why would you have Jedi training schools if it were just that easy? It's not! It goes against everything thats laid down before it.

    And the force wouldn't call Rey to Luke's lightsaber. That's just not how it works. Otherwise luke would have been called to it aswell on tatooine and met obi wan much earlier.
     
  6. VipersGratitude

    VipersGratitude Well-Known Member

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    Have you had Jedi training?
     
  7. The_Crapman

    The_Crapman Don't phone it's just for fun.

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    Yeh, but I have anger issues so rather than letting me go to the dark side they sent me forward in time to a galaxy far far away. There's so little force here all us banished are powerless. Apart from Matilda, but that girl was a freak. She used to make Yoda moonwalk all the time. It was hilarious!
     
  8. Harlequin

    Harlequin Well-Known Member

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    luke and leia both are force users , so all the children involved will be to some level force trained anyway
     
  9. Porkins' Wingman

    Porkins' Wingman Can't touch this

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    From a certain perspective, yes, there are many similarities. To a not-insignificant extent George Lucas used mirroring in the across the first 6 films. TFA takes mirroring to another level, undoubtedly, but I and many others don't have a problem with it, and to some the mirroring is positively welcome.

    It didn't even occur to me watching the film, because that sort of thing is not where my focus was. The primary story (IMO) in TFA is Rey's journey. The secondary story is Ben Solo's. The tertiary story is the First Order vs. The Resistance in the race to Luke Skywalker. All the bits you've pointed out are just the structural bits of the film linking the main bits of story together.

    Seemingly the destruction of the Republic serves the rest of the tertiary story in the trilogy, so they needed some mega weapon to achieve that, so an evolution from the Death Star to Starkiller Base is understandable - how else do you go about destroying the Republic?

    It's not a contradiction, it's just not the same as we were shown before. One minute you don't like repeating stuffed from previous films, but now you want them to mirror the Jedi training?

    Using the Force is not the same as being a Jedi. Rey is not a Jedi, she'd need some form of structured training to fulfill whatever criteria the Jedi had for ranking up, but that doesn't mean she can't swing a lightsabre and feel the Force in the process or use the Force in any other way. It would be like saying Mozart can't have written any symphonies when he was 4 (or whatever that trivia is) because he hadn't graduated music school. Other than the midichlorian stuff in TPM, there aren't any parameters in which the Force has to operate. Nothing in the first 6 films is contradicted.

    Nevermind whether you know how the Force works, that's not how logic works.
     
  10. The_Crapman

    The_Crapman Don't phone it's just for fun.

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    It's all well and good having the odd little nod to the other films, those 'oh I see what you did there, wink wink' moments, but there were soooo many of them beside the main structure being a copy. This felt like a film to just appease, comfort and mollycoddle fans of the originals, being too scared to do anything outside what had gone in those first 3, besides putting Rey's force power development into hyperspeed.

    Wanting them to give me a new story and not change 'the laws of the force as we know them' aren't contradictory. How Rey is suddenly a f'ing force god is a complete contradiction to established concepts about the force, how it works and how people come to use it.

    And yes, that is logic. You have no respect for logic and I have no respect for those with no respect for logic ;)
     
  11. David

    David Take my advice — I’m not using it.

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    Weak "it just does" arguments aside, the title of the film answered many of your questions, in my opinion.

    In an earlier film (one of the prequels), Yoda and Windu (iirc) discuss the diminishing ability of the Jedi utilise the force - maybe this is why so much training was previously required and why the dark side had the allure of greater power more quickly.

    This film witnesses a resurgence in the force and, perhaps, a balancing of it's utility by those that are naturally predisposed to harnessing it's power. i.e. the Jedi and the Sith.

    Ren is a part of the new order and disciple of the Sith, and this awakening may just put the light back on par with the dark, and it's utility becomes more instinctual.

    None of this is meant to appease you, but it is roughly how I felt the film was supposed to work.

    A final note: Looking for plot holes and wuts in Star Wars is like looking for sh!t in a field of cows - you'll be there all day cataloging them and miss the bigger picture - Steak! no, I mean its more of a space opera than an attempt at accurately portraying the science required. It's more about being swept along than counting the steps.

    Arguing otherwise with fanboys is an exercise in futility.

    I enjoyed it and gave it an 8/10 but, as with the rest of the series, I viewed it as an ejoyable popcorn flick - well, more a popcorn epic.
     
  12. Blogins

    Blogins Panda have Guns

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    I especially like the bit when they find Luke on some random Irish island. I swear there were Puffins in the background. More convincing than the two facial expressions Mark Hamill had to act anyway!
     
  13. The_Crapman

    The_Crapman Don't phone it's just for fun.

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    I think my expectations were too high, suckered into the hype machine like a moth to light. After the debacle with the phantom menace they probably wanted to play it really safe so didn't go too wild on the story line. My disappointment in that then caused me to look into it further and pick at it like an irritating spot, just making it bigger and bleed more.

    I need to go back and watch it again with expectations reset and try and forget all of the foibles. I might relax into it more and tale it for what it is rather than seeking some deeper meaning in 42.
     
  14. RedFlames

    RedFlames ...is not a Belgian football team

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    This is also the main issue I had with JJTrek, the plot was almost a carbon copy of a previous film [Nemesis] and the references to the past felt shoehorned in - oh we haven't heard McCoy says 'Im a Doctor not a..' oh wait never mind, there it is...

    As enjoyable as it and JJTrek may have been to watch at the time, imo both films felt like their sole purpose was to milk existing fans, and in a few years time most of them look back on TFA and like JJTrek the general consensus will be 'actually, it wasn't that good...'
     
  15. Harlequin

    Harlequin Well-Known Member

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    rewatching phantom menace , theres quite a lot which is really good , yes a lot of pap but a lot of good.

    debacle? utter tosh
     
  16. rollo

    rollo Well-Known Member

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    I personally think JJ Abrams is a special effects whore who just wants to make things go boom. The 2 new star trek films are lots of action and special effects but very little Star Trek.

    Theres little to any explaination to why only 1 ship can time travel or whats to stop the federation sending back ships to defeat the romulan ship in the first film.

    In the second one the enterprise looks like a Toy been played with and a scene which was orginally a very tense fight was turned into a 10 second blaster fest where a random admirals daughter saves the ship.

    They are quiet bad Star trek films and the new TV show will even ignore the world he has created.

    Star Wars 7 is a updated New Hope. Full of plot holes and things that make very little sense. Pretty typical Star Wars.

    If they follow the books which is what part of the story is based off then who dies next is pretty much set in stone as is how it will all end.

    Id give it a 6 outta 10 and so did alot of my friends who saw it and had similar feelings about it.
     
  17. Greentrident

    Greentrident Active Member

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    I really enjoyed the film. Afterwards I kept thinking about loads of bits that were wrong with itr but somehow the whole was really enjoyable! Just like the originals really. The bit were they found Luke on the Skellig islands I found strange as I've been there and there was no sign of him
     
  18. Archtronics

    Archtronics Well-Known Member

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    I think your getting a little to carried away with plot holes tbh.
    Its a film I don't need to know that while on route to the shield array Han ate a sandwich, took a dump behind a tree and took a short nap.

    That's what I hated about the prequels they had to invent things such as midichlorian's to try and explain things. Rather than people using there imagination and accepting that not all questions would be answered.

    Its the first of three films hence its main job was to lay the ground work for the next two films and attract as many new audiences as possible. Therefore a story that is very similar to the originals but also with new stuff to get kids attention its been very successful.
     
  19. TheBlackSwordsMan

    TheBlackSwordsMan Pig Assault!

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    What bothers me the most is the EU not canon anymore, I can't believe they erased Thrawn, Mara Jade and the solo kids. They had top notch material right in front of them and discarded it. What about my man, Kir Kanos and his arch enemy Carnor Jax? Kyp Durron, Cade Skywalker & Darth Krayt... so many great characters.
     
  20. VipersGratitude

    VipersGratitude Well-Known Member

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    Unless they're just establishing in the movies what is already canon in other media. Namely the 2012 book, Darth Plagueis. As you know, Snoke is rumoured to be Sidious' master, and that book tells of his experimentation with life and death. His Grand Experiment was to use the force to create...life. There is a theory that Snoke/Plagueis has refined that Grand Experiment and Rey, like Anakin before her, is a force-birth or perhaps even a reincarnation - explaining the sabre calling to her, the vader-breathing at the start of her vision, and her elevated attunement to the force. Perhaps Snoke needs a sample of Luke's DNA to fully realize his Grand Experiment hence Luke's hermitism. Perhaps Snoke's goal is to create an empire, not with an army of stormtroopers, but with an army of vaders. In addition to giving me the weirdest boner ever that would at once be a very different trilogy but also have familiar themes, speaking to the cyclical, symphonic nature of Star Wars.
     

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