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Storage Storage upgrade for a friend of mine

Discussion in 'Hardware' started by Arghnews, 15 Jun 2012.

  1. Arghnews

    Arghnews What's a Dremel?

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    So my friend who plays quite a few games is now filling up his old 500Gb with 130Gb Steam folder, BF3, WoW, etc.

    So I've been speaking to him and we've both been wondering how he should upgrade. Obviously he has the OS on his current drive.

    I was thinking reinstalling everything on a new Seagate Momentus XT 750Gb would be nice, in terms of price v performance and more space. Then he could use the 500Gb drive as a slow backup.

    -----Although, he was thinking of only buying more storage. So I'd perhaps say get a Samsung 830 256Gb for £140 (bargain? :D ). However then he said he'd want 2 for the space, so I was just wondering two things:

    Can you set them up as one 500~Gb drive, if you bought 2 SSD's? (Yes I realise if one fails etc etc)
    I believe you can with HDD's? Although it's been a while and I've forgotten. Can you do this with drives in disk manager in Windows, or only when creating partitions upon installing Windows? Do the drives have to be wiped to be extended (out of interest, obviously 2 new SSD's will be blank)

    I have setup here an old 320Gb drive with an XP OS on, and my new 1TB drive that I have an OS on now. So I reinstalled Windows and put everything on the 1TB drive again, copying some things. Could he do the same, I guess is my final question, except copy from his 500Gb drive to the "500Gb" SSD and boot from that also.

    Sorry the post's abit long. I'm just wanting clarification/correction on what I'm saying.

    (I suppose at the end of the day, it'll be easier to leave each SSD as it's own drive, install the OS on one, programs across both, use the HDD as another storage area?)

    And I believe in another thread somewhere someplace someone (vague much) mentioned it's a good idea to leave _% of your SSD un-partitioned? Again, seeking clarification.
     
  2. PocketDemon

    PocketDemon Modder

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    Yes you can put them into R0 - though, atm, without using Win8, using a beta intel driver & having an intel controller on the mobo then there's no trim...

    it's *much* better to do this using the boot option to set up the R0 array than to use the software based dynamic disk option in Windows.

    Providing he has a proper backup regime that protects his data, there is nothing inherently wrong with using R0 - i have done so with SSDs since 2009 - the only limitation being that, as (again) there isn't trim atm, artificially introduced idle time 'may' be necessary in order for the speed to be maintained - depending on his usage.


    Yes, of course he could do a fresh install & copy addtional things across.

    As to cloning the drive, there are a few settings which need to be altered for SSDs - & it's much easier to do everything from a clean install... ...not forgetting that it's good practice to reinstall every 6 months or so anyway.


    With leaving an extra portion of the SSD(s) unpartitioned, this is for increasing longevity & maintaining speeds - & termed over provisioning (OP)...

    ...but, alongside this, you also need to leave X amount of free space (ie formatted space that's not used).

    Now, all SSDs atm come with at least 7% OP anyway... ...& it's always a good idea to have *at least* ~14-15% of the formatted space being free space (unless you're using it/them for static storage).


    Samsung then recommend *at least* 9-10% (can't recall exactly) of extra OP...

    ...so, roughly doing the sums, 2x256GB = 512GB...

    ...standard formatted capacity @ 7% fixed OP = ~476GB...

    ...less an extra 9-10% for extra OP = ~430GB...

    ...less 14-15% for free space = ~367GB.

    So, this means that he'd shouldn't be using more than ~367GB of the total capacity.


    Now, personally, i recommending going even further than that - aiming for *at least* 28% total OP & 20% free space (though i do have *much* more than that on some of my SSDs)...

    ...taking the max used capacity down to ~295GB for a 512GB (i've just bought 2 of the 256GB 830s myself btw)...

    ...but then i've always bought the capacities that i've needed to allow me to do this.


    Well, naturally, not everyone can afford to be losing 42.4% of their total capacity though so, to be clear, i'm not saying that the SSDs will instantly die or become shonkily slow without the levels that i recommend aiming for...

    ...but it is really worth at least going with the extra 9-10% OP & 14-15% free space (again unless the use is for static data) - though, if it comes to a choice over the two, get the 14-15% free space first.
     
    Last edited: 15 Jun 2012
  3. theshadow2001

    theshadow2001 [DELETE] means [DELETE]

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    Every 6 months? You've got to be kidding me
     
  4. Virus44

    Virus44 What's a Dremel?

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    Why would you bother doing a full reinstall every six months ?
     
  5. ThirtyQuidKid

    ThirtyQuidKid Minimodder

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    Hmmm........ Every six months. I do an install once and thats it. Good maintenance and your fine.

    Otherwise re-install when it's broke and you can't fix it.

    Why is it good practice????
     
  6. PocketDemon

    PocketDemon Modder

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    First off, i didn't say 'literally' every 6 months to the day...

    ...& with SSDs & installing all the software (other than the OS) from HDDs then it's looking at no more than half a day to do... ...so it's not exactly that onerous of a task.


    Over time, as various programs & drivers get replaced &/or updated, the performance will tend to progressively deteriorate with any version of windows - normally as a result of poor programming of the apps or drivers themselves &/or the uninstall/update procedures & whatnot.

    Now, either you can never reinstall & put up with it, put it off until it becomes an issue for you or be proactive about it...

    ...it's entirely up to you of course.

    (oh, or you could try arsing about with 'system optimisers' - though i've never seen one that's not done more harm than good)


    Okay, this may be wrongly assuming that people on here do something a little bit more than a bit of browsing/email & playing games...

    ...& also assuming that there's better things to do in life than sandbox every program over time to see what effect it's going to have.

    Well, if either of these apply then clearly your needs are more basic than i'm imagining or you've got way more time on your hands than i have.

    [Edit]

    This is probably the best reason for doing so.

    Well, by pre-planning a reinstallation time, you're doing it to your agenda - not when something completely screws up...

    ...which, because that's the way things go, will always be when you really need everything working for some project or other.


    All up to the individual though.

    [End Edit]
     
  7. ThirtyQuidKid

    ThirtyQuidKid Minimodder

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    Again, I don't see the need to pre-plan a re-install. Regular backups and your done. Who cares it it screws up. Restore your backup and your done.

    As I said a bit of maintenance and your fine. Be a bit careful what you install and you shouldn't need to worry.

    Still as you said each to there own I suppose.

    Back to the original post I would just get a bigger HDD for storage and leave the rest as is or just go for the biggest SSD possible. I think I saw a 512gig M4 for around £283 on e-buyer. Will be less hassle than R0 and only a few pounds more.
     
  8. PocketDemon

    PocketDemon Modder

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    Ummmm... That doesn't hold logically...

    Since it will slow down, either you need to restore from an initial installation state or you will be restoring an image which is in a degraded state...

    in the former case, it will be using old drivers, un-updated software, games that you've stopped playing, etc - so it saves little, if any, time from doing a clean install...

    ...whilst in the later, you'll end up with things being slower than they need to be & more prone to fail again if it's a software issue.


    That's obviously not to say that you shouldn't be backing stuff up & couldn't use one in a pinch to get things up & running short term - but it's a substandard fix.

    But, if that's good enough for you then fine - it's just not what i would recommend to someone.
     
  9. Arghnews

    Arghnews What's a Dremel?

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    First of all guys, esp. PocketDemon, thanks for your incredibly long and detailed responses :)

    However, it almost seems that you've created as many questions as you've answered XD And my head is aching abit

    So, if he were to buy 2 Samsung 830 256Gb's, put them in Raid0, then they could be treated as one big drive, and Norton Ghost could be used to transfer the current data to that. But then TRIM won't work?

    Sorry, can you just clarify how I set them as one big drive outside of Windows? As outside of disk manager I can't remember/don't know -
    Also, TRIM: having never used an SSD myself, is TRIM a command supported on Windows 7 that you run to cleanup the SSD? Or does it sit and run in the background like an SSD's own garbage collection - Garbage Collection is entirely done by the SSD I believe? No user input required. Specifically the 830 and the M4 are what I'm looking at really.
    I'm struggling to understand the precise difference between the two now thinking about it.
    And RAID does not support TRIM then, that may degrade the SSD performance over time?

    If each SSD was set to a single drive, and he stored games across both, then would it need to be set as AHCI and both SSD's would support TRIM? Which mode is the default say if you had a normal HDD and 128Gb SSD, that you're meant to set it to anyway?

    - Sorry, on a separate point, I've read AHCI is better than IDE by default as it supports NCQ; if so, can, and should, I go and change my settings from IDE to AHCI right now? Presumably I need to follow something like this to do it, but should I? And if I build PC's more peeps in future, should I default set machines to AHCI before OS install?
     
    Last edited: 15 Jun 2012
  10. PocketDemon

    PocketDemon Modder

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    Yes that's correct with Win7 as things stand - not with Win8 (at least if you're using an intel controller).

    (it's unknown whether it will be added into Win7 into the future - but the current method simply cannot work as things stand)

    Though (again) i would personally do a clean install & then copy any data that's needed across.

    Right... Certainly on my Asus boards, i press CTRL+i when the orom message appears - & you then set the parameters that you want for any raid arrays.

    Now, in order to do this, you need the controller to be setup in raid mode in the bios - not ahci...

    ...however, if you had any non-raid disks connected, they would be in ahci mode - thus, imho, this is normally the best to choose.


    & yes, ahci (or raid) is better than ide for new builds...

    ...& you would need to follow the method shown to make it work if you're altering a setup that's using ide.

    Trim is a command that Win7 (& other OSes) can send to a SSD when data is deleted to tell it that certain LBAs no longer contain valid data (the SSD's controller translates the info from its logical to physical registers)...

    GC will still need to erase the nand & block combine & wear level & whatnot - so trim can improve the speed at which the SSD will recover with GC, but it's not a magical instanteous solution.

    Now, depending upon the SSD(s) chosen, there is a greater or lesser reliance on trim - the SFs, for example, do not particularly need trim at all... ...& the 830s are not *that* far behind... ...esp compared to something like the M4s.

    Obviously, as said, with Win8 then there will be trim in at least R0 & R1 (at least on the intel controllers).


    Re the potential slow down - what you do need though is more idle time in a non-trim environment - if you're writing huge amounts then this may need to be artificially introduced a couple of times a week...

    ...but for most people then it would be very unlikely to be needed more than once a month/6 weeks.

    You do still need idle time in a trim environment though - just less of it for the same r-e-w load.

    As to having 2 separate drives, this is perfectly doable as well - & with Win7 then, if they were in ahci or raid mode (but not in an array) then they would have trim.

    Have just been doing some pre-clean install testing of my new 830s & they're definitely going into R0 with Win7...

    (whilst i'll pick up Win8 through technet, i need some other software to be Win8 compatible before i can move onto it)
     
  11. hamza_tm

    hamza_tm Modder

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  12. PocketDemon

    PocketDemon Modder

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    Unless you're solely doing <=4K r/ws (which would be unusual for an OS/games usage), it would tend to be noticably slower than a pair of 830s...

    ...& the 830s have higher min ratings for their nand - 5,000 vs 3,000.

    Plus, if they/it ever needed repurposing to be used in a non-trim environment, the M4 really isn't great compared to the 830s.
     
  13. hamza_tm

    hamza_tm Modder

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  14. Arghnews

    Arghnews What's a Dremel?

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    Right, again, thanks for the response, I'll get back later with what's decided. Given the potential issues with two 830's due to lack of TRIM in an array, maybe just two drives will be easier.
    I wonder, using Norton Ghost that comes with the SSD, is it possible just to clone a certain amount of data across, ie. the OS and a few files. Then install stuff afresh to the other drive.
    Mmm, I have thought of getting an M4, however, the lower performance and especially the fact Samsung drives seem incredibly reliable and good performers puts me off getting a less reliable M4.

    Perhaps it'll be easier at least for now just to put a 64Gb Samsung drive as an SRT cache. It won't give him more space, but will help performance at least. I think he'd be quite keen on the idea, as his primary concern with the Seagate Momentus XT was that the 8Gb of SLC NAND cache would be too small.
    Any thoughts on putting in an 830 as a cache? Review sites seem to generally say the SRT works well enough. Although, he has a Giga Z68-AP-D3 with mSATA port specifically for SRT, but I gather I could plug the 830 into a SATA3 port anyway?
    Again, cheers for replies! :) I think later I'll go change my comp from IDE to AHCI/RAID. Even if I have two HDD's, putting my machine in RAID rather than AHCI has no downsides I believe.
     
  15. PocketDemon

    PocketDemon Modder

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    As said, i've just set up my 2 256GB 830s in R0... ...but your call on it.

    & with trim, as Win8 is apparently going to RTM next month & a technet subscription's not an uneconomical way to get a few legit copies (it was 10 with Win7) of it & Office & whatnot - albeit that you naturally can't sell spare licences on/use them in builds that you're selling/etc.


    Tbh, i've not tried using Norton Ghost in years so couldn't comment on how good, bad or indifferent it is now - i use Acronis for daily backing up of stuff & (again) wouldn't be looking at doing what you're doing...

    Probably the Norton website's the place to find the answer.


    & personally i'm not that taken with the idea of using SSDs for caching...

    Well, okay, it'll speed up x amount of the bits of the OS & whatever apps happen to be most accessed, but imho it's a bit of a half-arsed measure...

    That's not to say that you *have* to buy huge quantities of SSD storage so that *everything* can fit on, but it's not an option i'd consider.

    There's just such a huge improvement with going from HDDs to SSDs that spending on a slower 64GB one is liable to very quickly become a waste of money...

    ...well, unless the usage is really low, there'll almost certainly be the desire to up the capacity having seen the difference & it's then back to getting proper sized ones over 1 or 2 drives with the 64GB needing to be repurposed somewhere.
     
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  16. Arghnews

    Arghnews What's a Dremel?

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    Alright, well cheers for all the answers. I would perhaps consider telling him to RAID0 the drives, but because it's a less tech savey mate, I wouldn't want to disappoint/have anything go wrong with his PC.

    If it was myself I wouldn't mind doing more complex stuff, but I'd rather keep it nice and simple seeing as it's a mate's PC. I dunno what I'll recommend to him in the end, probably present the options+complexities+benefits of them.
    My thanks for all the answers PocketDemon (+rep) and others :thumb:
     

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