stuartpb and Nexxo argue about national pride, round ten, who's winning?

Look, the EU is trying to force standards upon it's members with total disregard to the measures and practices that were already in place in each member state. Now this may work some of the time, and to good effect. But there are many other times when it does nothing more than alienate certain member states from the majority. Us British seem to fall into the latter catagory more often than not.

We cannot have a centralised government that places rulings over so many indiviual countries. It just doesn't work. We tried it with the British Empire, the Romans tried it, as did the French and Germans. We need independance in our laws and practices, to be able to grow as a country.

Edit: Regards the cut in hospital beds, the Uk made that decision to try and cut costs. The EU forced that decision on Hungary to balance the books, and not the financial ones either. Is it so hard for you to not see the obvious point? Regards the fish apsect, you can try and tart up a response to me all day long, but when the spin stops, we all know it's lunacy!

 

Ever visit an estate in Hull?

I cry ********. People in developing countries like India and China have much less support from the government in terms of education and job training, yet they forge ahead like a steam train while over here in the West we plod on. The very fact that you are even looking at the government for guidance on selfimprovement is a big Fail.

The people primarily responsible for getting UK citizens jobs are the UK citizens, not employers, not the government. How are you struggling to comprehend that?

And they are cheaper because? (we're getting there...)

What exactly qualifies you to judge whether I am less deserving of my job here in the UK than a UK citizen?

 

Why not we've done it for 400 years. The United part of the equation.

 

I've just read through this thread now and i'll give my opinions as a white South African, with plenty of friends that went over for their 2 year working holiday to Britain.

I'm sure stuartpb is gonna blow a gasket after this post.

So I've had perhaps around 20 friends move over to the UK to make use of their 2 year working holiday visa, the worked in all manner of fields from construction, security, bartending, telephone call centers, sales, etc...

The general opinion my friends had of the brit youth was pretty negative, why should a young girl bother studying or working when she can get pregnant and get a nice council flat? At one stages my friends were all like "damn, its like fashion statement to have a kid under 20 these days".

My friends worked for british firms for the "reduced" foreigner rates and still managed to live comfortably in the UK, so why cant a brit be happy with the same rates? I'm sure in london especially i'd say around 20-30% of the lower end jobs are done by south africans. I think there are around a million south africans in the UK ATM.

If your british born you can just live off the state, if you're foreign you have to work. My friends had no trouble finding jobs, they all had work within a week of landing, some of them even got quite decent work ( 13pounds an hour back in 2003 ) as corporate security guards, where were the lines of brits that wanted the work?

If I ran a compnay and was given a choice for an eager foreign worker at a lower rate that wants to work, or a proud local that wants more money just cause he's a local and isnt really interested in working, I'd take the foreigner anyday.

I'm pretty sure that most of the higher skill set jobs in the UK are done by locals, and only the menial jobs (which are abundant) are the ones sitting empty. My one friend worked at an employment agency when one day a guy comes in looking for work, got offered a job putting up tents for large events and told the guy "oi, that's a job for a saffer, wotcha take me for".

It the exact same story here, the youth just want everything given to them and they don't want to work. So we have immigrants coming in from the surrounding country (mainly zim) taking the jobs and doing the work, so what do the locals do? Rise up and start massacring them.

Another problem my friends commented on in the UK once they returned, was the rise in youth hooliganism, they'd constantly get in fights on busses/subways on the way home from work with youngsters just because they were "saffers". Those kids should be in school or working not accosting foreigners that are doing their work cause they are too lazy to do it themselves (or providing their girlfriends with flats by knocking them up). Britain was once a great nation, one to be proud of but right now its a bit of a social mess compared with western europe.

It also seems as UK residents feel the same: http://www.ukcentral.co.uk/rants/opinions/dole-money-entitlement.html

Think about it, why aren't all the poles, bulgarians, italians, etc going to work in germany or france but britain? I doubt it's because of your lovely weather. It's because there is work available there.

Moving onto the imperial system, seriously why are people still holding onto this BS, that system makes absolutely no sense in today's world, the units in it are ridiculous. It's pure stubbornness that's preventing people from moving over to the much much simpler metric system...

On the pound euro topic I don't have much to say, I'm no economist but I'm sure in a few years, the euro will most probably be adopted as the British currency.

 

And that is the worst case of snobbery I have ever had the displeasure to read. So you are judging people on where they live now? Way to go. I happen to come from one of the worst areas in my Town, but I still managed to find myself work and was hungry enough to learn. Like many others in my area too.

And that is ********! Our schools are failing because our government had become so obsessed with data capture and comparisons that they are failing in their primary function, which is education. Ask any teacher in the UK and you will hear the same thing! We have lost our apprenticeships, and had half hearted replacements since. The YTS (youth training scheme) was one, so opportunities for vocational training have been severly limited. Not down to British citizens not wanting training, but down to governmental meddling.

Because I run the company that decides whether you would be employed or not if you came for a job. If you couldnt give satisfactory confidence to me that you were a long term prospect, then you wouldn't get the job. Quite easy really

 

And look how long the Scots, Welsh and Irish have been demanding independance for!

 

That's a good argument, and I agree to an extent. But the UK also benefits a lot from EU membership --otherwise it wouldn't be part of it. But people do not readily understand those benefits.

When Hungary joined the EU, it got massive subsidies: 1.23 billion Euro in 2005, up from 600 million Euro in 2004, according to a European Commission report. The amount is the second largest after Poland among new EU member countries. Hungary’s net balance shows 140 million Euro net subsidies in 2004 and Ft 490 million in 2005.

It is currently hitting up the EU for a 9.6 billion Euro bail-out (and arguing that it needs more). So yes, the EU feels that it has some entitlement in determining how health care subsidies are best spent. With this cut in 9000 beds also comes improvement of key hospitals and other health care facilities. Hungary is doing very well, thank you.

Again, I can't rationally argue with belief.

 

OK, first, note the smiley. Second, what, you did all that without government support?

Yet here you are, come from the poor side of town, now running a successful business. Because you still managed to find yourself a job, and you were hungry enough to learn.

Now if you can do it, why can't others?

This is you: bright, hard-working, ambitious. You have self-respect and you don't count on free lunches. You feel proud of your achievements (rightly), and just as you strive to be the best you can be, you like to see the best in your country. I see your point: there are many things I like about this country (after all, I chose to come here). Perhaps if everyone was like you, then Britain could be the country you can see it could be. But not everyone is like you; you are in the minority. And this country has its flaws like any other. So don't criticise your national heritage too much, but don't idealise it too much either. You were born here by chance. Everything else about you is your own personal hard work.

Well, I've been here 17 years. Does that count?

 

and have you given it to them?

 

As a Scot, I could hardly give it to myself could I?

 

i was saying "you" as in the bloody United Kingdom, as in the place where you want something and government has to make it happen... right?

edit: also read Coldon's post

 

oooh someones been hit with the stroppy stick

As it happens, the 3 member states of the United Kingdom have been granted some independance from England. Not enough in some peoples eyes, but it's a start.

EDIT: I suggest you change your attitude within your posts if you wish this discussion to remain civil. I have read every reply, and I chose not to reply to that one as everything within it has already been covered here.

 

One area that the Euro may benefit team GB, is removing Eurozone companies' susceptibility to exchange rate fluctuations, well at least in EU, a pretty large market by all accounts. Price transparency would also induce GB retailers / importers to set more competitive RRPs, at least within the framework of local tax regulations. One of the biggest hurdles in establishing a true union, is the lack of a common universally (sic) spoken language. Once communication barriers are removed, it is pretty apparent that all human being share the same basic aspirations and fears, thus finding common ground is less difficult. The Romans, Chinese and Yanks all have understood the vital importance of language in establishing esprit du coeur.

 

what attitude?

edit:
what the hell is a stroppy stick?

 

As long as the lanuage of choice is English, I would be Ok with this Seriously though, then we would all become Europeans above all else. This is something I would fight against till I was 6ft under. I am proud of the differences that make me British, so why should I be forced to give them up?

 

The one where you say things that some members don't like... Drop it mister!

 

The attitude is your read the post demand, no need for it was there?

 

Most French, German - insert nation- would argue the same point, hence the trouble, Esperanto anyone, fook no, I'd rather talk in scat.

 

If one should talk about attitudes, it is indeed you stuartpb...

Anyway, off to useful conversations...

 

Well after 7 pages we ae still at loggerheads and have agreed on nothing of relevance. It would seem that many see UK citizens as lazy, beligerant and stupid. Good to see that everyone forms an opinion solely on what they read in the press or see on the news. If they took the time to get to know British people, they would find that lazy, beligerant and stupid British people are in fact in the minority. It's great to see that Europe's favourite sport - British Bashing is still alive and kicking. Great because it gives us something to have a laugh about in places like these.

I have stated my case and said all I can say really. Your opinions are your own as are mine. I still think that adopting the Euro now would be a silly and rash decision. I also think that the EU was and is a very bad idea. Nothing here has made me change my thinking, and nothing I can say will change yours, so with that I will bow out gracefully. Unless that is we can cover some new ground instead of rehashing the same argument? I doubt it though