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Displays The 120hz :Discussion:

Discussion in 'Hardware' started by Ta10n, 22 Oct 2011.

?

I have seen or own a 120hz screen and I can tell the difference between 120hz and 60

  1. Yes

    13 vote(s)
    44.8%
  2. No

    16 vote(s)
    55.2%
  1. Ta10n

    Ta10n New Member

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    Hey guys,

    Just wanted to address something I've been seeing a lot of recently. People going on rants about framerates and eyes and new monitors. Namely saying that "you can't see more than x frames per second blah blah blah science blah blah."

    Well I recently got a 120hz display and...

    I CAN SEE THE DIFFERENCE... ON MY FREAKIN' DESKTOP CURSOR

    Not to mention games, DO NOT EVEN MENTION GAMES

    Seriously I can tell with 100% accuracy when my display is at 60hz and when its at 120hz. Occasionally the NVIDIA driver will have a fit and set it back to 60, and its like "WHERE MY BUTTER SMOOOOOTTHHHHH GO?!?!"

    In all seriousness though I'm curious to see if anyone can't see the difference between 60hz and 120hz who has seen both. While I doubt I have some sort of super eyes it would be interesting to see if some people can see it, while others can't.

    So with that being said lets get a poll going. Time to do some science.
     
    Last edited: 22 Oct 2011
  2. GoodBytes

    GoodBytes How many wifi's does it have?

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    You need some serious GPU and CPU power to run games at 120FPS. Unless you seriously cut game graphical settings.

    If you see a difference with a 120Hz, then good. enjoy! Why even ask?

    For me, (This is my PERSONAL OPTION, not a fact, or trying to impose) I would prefer to get a faster response time monitor, and significantly better visuals, then a marginally faster gaming experience, which:
    1- will end up costing me more for GPU performance, OR cut down on gaming graphical details.
    2- Some games, as the computer gets older, will no longer run at 120FPS, so I go no where for long, costing computer maintenance up to roof, to keep it up.

    Let me elaborate. I enjoy colors very much. I came from a CRT (so I know what 400Hz is (had to put the screen to 640x480, but it worked.. looked like looking at a peace of paper has much as the eye could not see flickering by the redraw, and aged old phosphor)). TN panel all provide washed out colors (for me), less sharp and shorter viewing angle. All of which I am used from my CRT. To try and get the closest to my CRT, I need a high-range monitor in the sub-1000$ market of monitors. I got the Dell U2410, which fits my needs perfectly.

    The monitor is fast enough:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    (source: TFTCentral)

    IPS panel are much slower than TN.. unless you are willing to pay. And I am one of those who is.. all in the name of superb colors. Movies looks awesome, and games look awesome.

    That is MY REASON and OPINION, why I don't care about 120Hz monitor.
    I am NOT imposing my views... I want to be VERY clear on this... this is my view on the mater reflecting MY NEEDS.. not for anyone else... (else it would be in my Monitor guide thread).



    Also the drop down of FPS, has nothing to do with Nvidia GPU, nor Nvidia drivers.
    It's simple, if you have V-Sync On, the GPU will sync every frame with the monitor the best it can to avoid tearing. So it has the following FPS speed:
    15, 30, 60, 120.
    If a game is too demanding for 120, it goes down to 60.. and duplicate frames... so it's like having a 60Hz monitor, if it can't keep up to 60FPS (this of course applies to 60Hz monitor as well), then the game will run at 30FPS, and then 15FPS.

    Disabling V-Sync in games which allows you to disable it, will solve your problem... The game will run anywhere between 60 to ~110FPS, depending on the games demand.
     
    Last edited: 22 Oct 2011
  3. Deders

    Deders Well-Known Member

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    You could use D3DOverrider to enable triple buffering with Vsync enabled so you get the tear free images, as well as every framerate between 0 and 120, some people say it makes first person shooters less responsive, would like to hear your opinion.

    It comes with Riva tuner, don't worry if it says the drivers aren't recognise, it's a separate program in itself.
     
  4. debs3759

    debs3759 Was that a warranty I just broke?

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    Most people can see the difference 60Hz and 70Hz. When you get to 90Hz it gets MUCH harder to tell the difference, and at those speeds most people would not see a perceivable difference.

    I don't know much about modern monitor technology, but it's my understanding that CRT had a flicker at 60Hz that most people could see, as the signal degraded betwen each refresh. That became much less of a problem with TFT/LCD/etc, but still as the refresh rate goes up the effect will diminish and at a certain point on a modern monitor and fading will effectively disappear, making the image appear clearer. Ther will always be a point at which the image smooths out, and beyond that most people would find it impossible to know the difference.
     
  5. GoodBytes

    GoodBytes How many wifi's does it have?

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    Close but no cigar.
    The way a screen works, is that it draws line by line from top to bottom. The "Hz" part is the speed from it takes for the monitor to draw 1 full picture (first pixel to last).
    The reason why CRT's flicker, is because the way it works. The canon (cathode ray), draws 1 line at a time, as it receives the information. However, we would only see 1 line at a time. To keep the image in place.. a layer of phosphor is used in the tube which is able to capture lightly and release it slower. High end the monitor, the better the phosphor, the more/longer the phosphor can retain light. So, really high end monitors, could provide 0 flicker. In the more reasonable price range (at the time of price of monitors), Usually 75Hz-85Hz did the trick. However, most people bought the low-end monitors, that was a flickering fest.
     
  6. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead It's big, and it's clever.

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    I doubt the OP is referring to flicker, as TFTs don't flicker. As Goodbytes said, CRTs flickered because the screen phosphors glowed only when the electron gun scanned it, so technically, only one line of the screen was illuminated at any one time. High persistence tubes reduced that effect a little but even so, by the time the gun was scanning the very last lines of a screen, the top was effectively dark. This is why photographing a CRT with a shutter speed of more than 1/60th second made half the screen go black.

    TFTs don't do that. The whole screen remain lit all the time, and the pixels just change once every 60 seconds so long as there is movement. If it's displaying a static image, then literally nothing happens, and it really is a static image (almost... but I'll keep the post short :)).

    However, smoothness of movement is another matter. Despite a TFT not flickering, it can only display a frame rate as fast as it's refresh rate, which in most cases is 60fps.

    You CAN see a difference between 60fps and 120fps.

    I have seen 120hz panels side by side with 60hz panels playing the same content, and the smoothness of movement is apparent.

    But.... and this is a big, robust kind of but...... in order to get a screen fast enough to make this difference apparent, you need a fast TN panel, and TN panels are ****!

    You gain smooth movement, but lose quality, viewing angle, colour accuracy, colour depth, contrast and decent backlighting.

    In short, if you are a gamer, and that was sole reason for building your rig, then yes... a 120hz panel is a good thing. You'll have smooth movement if your rig can sustain high FPS, and you can have 3D if that's something that excites you.

    120Hz is useless for movies, as movies are 24fps. The only advantage is you'll be able to watch 3D movies. (although technically there's no reason why 3D couldn't happen with a 60Hz panel as movies are 24fps)

    If like most people, you do a wide variety of stuff on your PC, then my advice is get a decent IPS or VA panel.
     
  7. Elton

    Elton Officially a Whisky Nerd

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    I can see a bit of difference, but seeing as most things aren't made for 120FPS...
     
  8. jizwizard

    jizwizard Well-Known Member

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    i have the xl2410t and yes i notice the world of difference from 60-120fps. much smoother and great for fast paced games and fps. but like goodbytes will say the colour accuracy is not brilliant. took me a while to get my monitor calibrated. yes ips will produce better colours but from what ive heard from alot of people about these 120hz it is an improvement over 60hz panels. not one has been disapointed with there purchase. swings and roundabouts
     
  9. LeMaltor

    LeMaltor >^_^

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    a lot of pigeons using bit tech hey
     
  10. LennyRhys

    LennyRhys Oink!

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    Threads like this inevitably develop into a TN-bashing arena, so before that happens I'd like to interject a little (much needed) perspective on what's already been said:

    Goodbytes and Pookeyhead know their stuff, and Pookey in particular is an imaging professional who holds the best quality in high esteem. Therefore this:

    is a valid opinion, because compared to a £2K Eizo S-PVA monitor, any TN panel will indeed look like cat vomit.

    HOWEVER, most people are not imaging professionals, and most people do not require 178 degree viewing angles or a calibrated wide gamut display for viewing porn web pages, in which case TN can in fact look "good" to some people.

    Some people want 120Hz gaming, other people want "colour managed" gaming; both are valid positions to hold, even though both positions seem absurd to some people.

    Just an FYI: this is in no way meant to be a defence of 120Hz... just trying to balance things out a little. :)
     
  11. jimmyjj

    jimmyjj Member

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    120 Hz must be nice, but as Goodbytes says it is a total luxury - you would need 2 x GTX 580's in SLI just to achieve those frame rates (as minimums) in all games. This sort of set up is beyond most people.

    I have a GTX570 - which was at the limit of my budget - and I can not even achieve 60 fps (minimum) in many games I play, let alone 120.

    I would really like to play with a 120 Hz monitor to see what I think.

    For example I notice in games when my frames per second drop below 60. If my FPS drops to say 40 I notice it easily. Consequently I am prepared to sacrifice graphics quality to maintain 60 fps.

    *Edit* btw OP it does not have to be the 120Hz argument, it can be the 120 Hz discussion. I love my IPS panel but I would love to see for myself what 120Hz can do - my mind is not closed and nor is most peoples here.
     
    Last edited: 22 Oct 2011
    LennyRhys likes this.
  12. LennyRhys

    LennyRhys Oink!

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    Agree with jimmyjj that there is no "argument" as such - no matter what TN offers in smoothness and response times, it will never compete with IPS or VA technologies in terms of panel quality, especially larger panels (24" and up) which are growing in popularity. This is simply a discussion about whether or not the difference in frequency is noticeable.
     
  13. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead It's big, and it's clever.

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    I was actually thinking they were **** compared to many other panels costing not a great deal more. Why would I be comparing a TN panel to a £2000 panel?
     
  14. lm_wfc

    lm_wfc Member

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    I think what everyone is missing is that if you output 50 fps, and your screen is at 60hz, it means
    That instead of evenly spaced frames, 10 times its gonna stick on the screen for twice as long.

    I don't know as much as all of you but surely you gpu doesn't output perfectly interspaced frames?
     
  15. Ta10n

    Ta10n New Member

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    Depends on the game I suppose. My 120hz screen is in my laptop, and with a GT555M I can push pretty close to 120 fps in TF2 with the settings maxed.

    All that being said, and with all my praise of 120hz, if I had had an IPS option I would have been all over it.

    I'm doing a degree in industrial design so color accuracy for prints is an absolute must. Luckily the TN Panel in this thing is one of the better (maybe even one of the best) ones. I'd compare it to some of the newer MacBook Pro screens. Yes it isn't in the same ballpark as an S-IPS, H-IPS, PVA, S-PVA, OLED, or what have you, but it still has very good viewing angles, minimal color shift, no ghosting, and insane levels of brightness. It also covers Adobe sRGB reasonably well, although it did need to be calibrated out of the box.

    I think what all of you need to remember is that this is not a TN vs. IPS argument. While I realize that 120hz displays are limited to TNs atm, it's only a matter of time before we get 120hz IPS displays. So keep the IPS chestbeating to a minimum :thumb:
     
  16. GoodBytes

    GoodBytes How many wifi's does it have?

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    Even if there was a 120Hz IPS panel, I would not buy it. Again the cost of running 120FPS is simply to high. And as you said, you need a mobile Geforce 555M to run TF2 at such FPS... TF2 is a really old game. If it did not need to much power, then NOW I would consider it, in my purchasing decision.
     
  17. Slizza

    Slizza beautiful to demons

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    120hz screens also have the 3d capability going for them.
    this seems to have been left out of consideration altogether.

    As soon as 120hz IPS screens are available, i'm interested.

    Just sold my U2410 and the TN screen i'm using is horrible in comparison.
     
  18. Showerhead

    Showerhead New Member

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    Definitely notice a difference in smoothness in the ones i've seen but haven't had a chance to play on one. Not sure i'd buy one however isn't worth the drop in image quality from a HP LP2475w for me especially for the price they go for.
     
  19. LennyRhys

    LennyRhys Oink!

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    There would be nothing wrong with such a comparison; IPS and VA are streets ahead of TN no matter how much they cost (£150 or £3000), so the price of the panel being compared is irrelevant.

    In any case I was making the point that "TN is ****" is an opinion which is commonly mistaken for fact, especially on these forums. Nothing wrong with TN for casual use - IMO some TN panels can look very good indeed...but you won't hear that here very often LOL.
     
  20. Roskoken

    Roskoken New Member

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    Many mammals have a higher proportion of rods in their retinae than humans do, and it is likely that they would also have higher flicker fusion thresholds, such as pigeons

    HOPE THAT HELPS
     
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