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Motors The 65 mpg Ford the U.S. Can't Have

Discussion in 'General' started by Scirocco, 16 Sep 2008.

  1. johnmustrule

    johnmustrule What's a Dremel?

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    What? I can get diesel anywhere! These are the "business reasons" they aren't making money anymore.

    Journalist: why didn't the redesigned mustang include independent suspension? Ford Rep: it would have cost $2000 per car. - factual account - and I still cant buy an American car that can handle a turn, at least a cheap one.
     
  2. Xen0phobiak

    Xen0phobiak SMEGHEADS!

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    Actually thats doable over here, if you drive it right.
     
  3. Mother-Goose

    Mother-Goose 5 o'clock somewhere

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    The Fabia vRS feels plenty fast enough, and you can easily overtake normal cars, and have a race with a boxter if you fancy it.

    That's the good thing about Diesel's, or at least it's why I like them, they wallop you in the back when you floor it, you may not be going that fast, but you feel as if you are, which makes them more fun, it's usable power whilst not annoying everyone else on the road, I'm sure Nexxo finds the same thing.

    @ Nexxo: They do woosh don't they, I like the faint whistle from the dumpvalve when you floor it (this is the standard dumpvalve, not some stupid whiplash jobby)
     
  4. Burnout21

    Burnout21 Is the daddy!

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    If your lucky to own a 6 speed diesel then 60mph is at a low rpm where all the torque is, which means motorway driving is pure pleasure because you dont have to mash the gearbox to accelerate like a scolded cat! plus you get a good return on fuel economy.

    you want to feel what a good diesel can do, go test drive a 3L V6 CDTI vauxhall vectra
     
  5. kingred

    kingred Surfacing sucks!

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    If you want to feel what a good diesel can do, go test drive an audi Q7 with the twin turbo v12 they have.
     
  6. Burnout21

    Burnout21 Is the daddy!

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    thats not a car its a tank! the 3L veccy will scream past a Q7
     
  7. kennethsross

    kennethsross What's a Dremel?

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    My Mondeo (6-speed ) is bang on 2000rpm at a confirmed (GPS) 70mph.

    Also have to agree with Mother-Goose, the surge from a decent diesel still puts a smile on my face!
     
  8. Mother-Goose

    Mother-Goose 5 o'clock somewhere

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    My Fabia vrs is the same, 2000rpm in 6th = 70mph and around 55mpg.

    I do like 60mph on A roads in 6th, you can barely hear the engine, the turbo isn't spooled, and it's pure pleasure. When you inevitably catch up with a tractor, you just prod the accelerator, your up to 75 in no time, and past with no drama, no effort, and a bit of smile on your face.

    btw, 3.0 V6 TDI Audi A5 MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
     
  9. Xen0phobiak

    Xen0phobiak SMEGHEADS!

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    Mine, same car, 05 plate 6 speed 130brake TDCI mondeo is nearer 1900rpm at gps confirmed 70mph, on the same size tyres. Are your tyre pressures OK? I also get nearer 60MPG on the motorway, based on what goes in the tank, not what the dash readout says.
     
  10. Mother-Goose

    Mother-Goose 5 o'clock somewhere

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    That could be down to the kipper smoking....
     
  11. The_Beast

    The_Beast I like wood ಠ_ಠ

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    Bull bull bull


    every single fueling station around here has diesel or fill not the one 2 minutes away does
     
  12. NiHiLiST

    NiHiLiST New-born car whore

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    You can race a Boxster on a BMX, you'll still lose ;) Fair point about them feeling fast in every day use though, I imagine they are nice to drive day-to-day, but when it comes time to put the hammer down a bit on a twisty B-road, it just wouldn't do anything for me. In terms of feeling like you're going fast without actually going fast, the Suzuki Cappuccino was an utter god :) Each to their own :)
     
  13. Krikkit

    Krikkit All glory to the hypnotoad! Super Moderator

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    Good..? V...Vectra..? Eh?

    This thread has turned into a dieselly jizz-fest.
     
  14. Amon

    Amon inch-perfect

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    After some thought, my current engine isn't fuel inefficient at all. People have swapped it into other cars, particularly into old Datsun of the '70s, and achieved ridiculously good economy figures. Really, my piss poor economy is partly from the weight and mostly from the totally inefficient torque converter; I run almost 3000rpm at just just 110km/h in top gear with a redline of only 6000rpm? I have at the back of my mind, somewhere in 5 years time, to swap in the transmission of another Toyota into the car and convert it into a 5- or 6-speed manual. Swapping in the GETRAG V161 6-speed into the Toyota Aristo is already hugely popular in Japan (if only for the intent of drifting the car) and, I imagine, the same V160/V161 would fit well to my engine. Of course, I'd like to run my own custom gear ratios with the top gear topping at around 340km/h to keep my engine speed low.

    And then I'll turbo it with one of the extremely durable KKK snails: K27 3470MOJ :lol: The lot of you may recognize the KKK brand as they are Europe's leading supplier of turbines (Garrett for USA, IHI and Mitsubishi for Japan) and they are known for huffing and puffing in every turbo Porsche engine.
     
    Last edited: 20 Sep 2008
  15. Hack'n'Slash

    Hack'n'Slash Minimodder

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    Out of curiosity, are you basing your opinion on real world experience or Clarkson Syndrome?
     
  16. NiHiLiST

    NiHiLiST New-born car whore

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    It's not just Clarkson, there have been plenty of poor reviews of the Vectra (dependant on the model).
     
  17. Hack'n'Slash

    Hack'n'Slash Minimodder

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    That's very true, the non-sport range don't handle too well at all. I just get a bit tired of so people thinking they all drive the same just because it's a Vectra and Clarkson doesn't like it.

    I drive a Vec-C GSi and it handles far better than most people would imagine, it would be even better with a set of Bilstein shocks & some Eibach springs, so it just goes to disprove Clarkson's opinion that it's the worst chassis in the world.
     
  18. HourBeforeDawn

    HourBeforeDawn a.k.a KazeModz

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    Dont want it, its a FORD after all dont need it breaking down after a month.
     
  19. jaguarking11

    jaguarking11 Peterbilt-strong

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    DIesel in the US has become a very tricky game. When you sit down and look at all the variables, its clear why the US market isnt going to get a diesel revolution anytime soon.

    The major thing to consider is that diesel fuel is used to tax trucks, trucks must fill a certain amount of diesel every few states to pay road taxes. Trucks here take the majority of diesel fuel. The diesel fuel cost anywhere from 10-30% more per gallon than gasoline.

    Now on to the enviromental standards. The new diesels are a poor excuse for clean running vehicles. Urea injection smells like piss on the road, and the soot output is still there, next time one of you washes their car, check the soot on the paint, chances are its from a diesel. Secondly the emission standards make it cost prohibitive to put a diesel vehicle on the road, between the extra cost of manufacturing a diesel engine, then the technology to make it produce the power and retain the ever growing emission standards make it very difficult to put up a competitive product. The same tdi vw diesel that gets 50+mpg in europe will get around 43mpg here at best (talking us gallons 3.8L not 4.2L brit gallons here).

    The positive points of a diesel engine as outlined above are massive torque, but that comes at a cost. Sure a diesel engine can rev to 5k rpm, but it wont make power at those speeds, it makes its power between 2000-3000rpm.

    This brings me to transmission technology, for a diesel engine to accelerate quickly it needs a tall final gear coupled to a very close ratio transmission. That makes for transmissions that are heaver to withstand the torque at low rpm, all fine and dandy but now you need more r&d on transmission tech and added cost to manufacture.

    The main down sides to diesel cars are also the serviceability here, the infrastructure here is built around gasoline engined cars, in easy to understand terms, ford would have to re certify all their technicians to work on diesel cars. Trucks on the other hand have their own service centers, that cost 2-3x the price of a regular mechanic but thats ok simply because those centers are for commercial use.

    as for diesel vs gasoline engines

    diesel engine is great for traffic conditions where the raw power needs to be low, but at highway speeds it starts to struggle.

    if you look at a diesel engine power curve vs a traditional gasoline counterpart, you will see that the diesel engine is dead in the water for most of the rev range. between idle and 2krpm its producing around 10% power and between 2-3k rpm its producting 80% of its power with a very sharp drop off after.

    gasoline engine, the power curve is smoother, it will make the same 10% power at a little over idle and will make 20-30% of the power under 2K rpm and will steadily increase into the 2500rpm range with most small engines peeking at 3000rpm but here is the main difference, it will keep the tourque at 80% or above all the way to redline and sometimes beyond.

    For example, my mustang makes 300hp/320lb of torque out the box. Now that its chipped and tuned it should be making around 330/360lb of torque. The gains are in the extreme end of the power band to the naked eye. However my car will continue pulling hard all the way to 6750rpm redline and almost 7000rpm fuel cutoff. I can romp on my engine at 2000rpm cruising at 70mph and drop it to 4rth gear, it will pull all the way to 145mph without me changing a gear and without it running out of steam.... here is the kicker though. My car will net me 20mpg city under normal driving and nearly 30mpg highway, not bad considering its a 4.6L v8

    I have driven cars with diesel engines b4, and their gasoline counterparts. Driven a 2001 vw jetta tdi that pulls hard to 3k and then falls flat on its face. that car was a pain and took carefull planing if I wanted to pass someone on the freway, and then I drove a 2000 ford focus zx3 2L zetec engine. The engine reacts differently. You can just give it gas and it responds as long as the rpms are above 1500rpm. The power is instantaneous in the focus, the jetta took a while. Now here is the kicker, after driving both cars and talking with their owners, the focus got a consistent 30mpg highway withought much issue. The jetta only managed 32mpg in the same driving conditions. The jetta blew a turbo at 67k miles, the focus broke a suspension spring at 140k miles. Otherwise both problem free cars and both daily driven workhorses. To me the choice is crystal clear here.

    I have also driven a large duramax powered beast, the thing had a bullydog tune and upgraded turbocharger. The thing took off like a bat out of hell. Produced 500hp and over 700lb of tourque. In that aplication the diesel wins, not for the brute force it makes after modifications but for the work it does and the economy it achives, at 21mpg on a dually truck that was impressive. Ive driven the gasoline counterpart of that truck too. They both acelere very quickly for the type of vehicles they are but sports cars they are not with the gasoline counterpart averaging around 16mpg highway.

    The tradeoffs currently are too great to switch to diesel. When gasoline cars, are cheaper and more reliable, at least here in the US they are. Now the only way to change this notion is to make a true diesel hybrid, where the diesel engine does nothing but generate electricity at its peak torque set rpm. The movement should come from the electric motors. That way you can achieve nirvana so to speak, instantaneous/constant power and fuel efficiency. Will it come? I hope so. For now the stop gap will be the upcoming volt and the monstrosities toyota/ford makes and calls them hybrids.

    The current gen of hybrids is just that a hybrid moron/idiot tech.
     
  20. Xen0phobiak

    Xen0phobiak SMEGHEADS!

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    I've got to argue with the speed vs power for the diesels part of your post there, I've driven older diesels that did behave like that, but my current one is different. If I put my foot all the way down, the engine reaches around 1500rpm, the turbo spools up and it pulls hard (compared to what I'm used to) to 4500rpm.
     
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