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The Coronavirus Thread

Discussion in 'Serious' started by d_stilgar, 13 Mar 2020.

  1. adidan

    adidan Guesswork is still work

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    "teething problems"

    Yeah they happen when you throw cash into the wind for your chums to catch.

    Oxford trial sounds promising (think even I can convince my mum when she realises more subjects have been tested than is usually the case for stuff that's already on the market).

    Cheaper and easier to store, a must to get poorer nations vaccinated. I hear the Gates Foundation had ordered a billion.

    Oh but then Bill would because he's made a deal with the devil for a billion souls or something. What is the current bollox doing the rounds?
     
  2. spolsh

    spolsh Multimodder

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    sorry, but that's all back to front. The Devil has to make a deal with Bill, not the other way around ... and the devil will be paying way more than a billion souls.

    Fingers crossed the vaccine works as well (or even better) in the wild than in the trials.
     
  3. Anfield

    Anfield Multimodder

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    Sucking off BoJo for saving Christmas by making it 5 days long:

     
  4. RedFlames

    RedFlames ...is not a Belgian football team

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    I hope all 3 work as advertised.
     
  5. walle

    walle Minimodder

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    It didn't' make sense to you because you didn't understand the analogy. You do however understand how to display bad manners in general. I'll give you that.

    BTW.
    The software would be the immune system.

    For your edification.

    If it's not in your body it would by its very nature be foreign to it. Else it would not have to be injected.

    That was the context of foreign. It was not in the context of being of unknown origin, then injected.


    In any case.
    There's evolutionary reasons for why we humans are wary of what we put into our bodies. It's in our firmware to be guarded and hesitant when we don't know what it is.
    It's an innate defense mechanism that has served us well as a species. It's always there running in the background and it will be more or less pronounced in people.

    There are exceptions. If we are to believe MSM some people drink bleach! Maybe the result of a malfunctioning firmware.
     
    Last edited: 24 Nov 2020
  6. walle

    walle Minimodder

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    I hope you meant "less expensive" not "cheaper"
    Cheap isn't good.
    Well, perhaps it shouldn't come as a surprise if its cheaper.

    I know 'we' have a habit of experimenting on third worlders selling them medication that's out of expiration date etc.
     
  7. Byron C

    Byron C Over-reacting and over-analysing since 1982

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    Erm, no. The software/hardware analogy doesn't work, because there is no such thing in humans.

    Bad manners is constantly dodging the simple question of what you had for breakfast.
     
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  8. Mr_Mistoffelees

    Mr_Mistoffelees Does Not Eat Soylent Green.

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    ↑↑↑ The most sensible post, in this thread, for a long time.
     
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  9. MLyons

    MLyons 70% Dev, 30% Doge. DevDoge Staff Administrator Super Moderator Moderator

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    i trust the "Tomatoes" my mate grows more than the current gov but the whole medical industry? Yeah, I reckon it'll be safe
     
  10. adidan

    adidan Guesswork is still work

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    How on earth can anybody answer that?
     
  11. Gareth Halfacree

    Gareth Halfacree WIIGII! Staff Administrator Super Moderator Moderator

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    I can answer it no problem.

    ...in a decade.
     
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  12. spolsh

    spolsh Multimodder

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    Aw hell. he's actually gonna put it in his calendar for 2030.
     
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  13. ModSquid

    ModSquid Minimodder

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    I remember adidan's post from a few weeks back re: NZ, yet now we're talking about reintroducing air travel again.
    Anyway, without trying to be overly controversial and also don't want to do too much of a back and forth as we're all entitled to our views etc., just want to point out that you do seem to be confirming exactly what I'm saying:
    Agreed, but it's been more rushed than usual and as far as I'm aware, across a smaller and less diverse subject group, which is the reason for some of the doubt.
    Agreed, but as above - more rushed and no long-term study.
    Not really relevant - my missus can give an injection. In fact, a vet probably could in a pinch. And a dentist. That doesn't mean they've had any input into the content of that injection, nor any real clue as to what its long-term implications are. THAT's the main point of my argument.
    It is. Training on giving injections.
    In giving injections? Yes. In understanding the long-term effects of THIS injection? I don't believe that's the case.
    Is it though? The individual contents of disco biscuits came from and were tested in, labs. People have been necking those globally in their millions, multiple times a week(end) and they still have no real idea of the long-term effects. Side effects other than euphoria and pulling funny faces have however been observed, like overheating and death, with a possibility of depression in the medium term. And these have been around about thirty years, with many studies undertaken.
    I don't want to labour this particular point though, as it was meant as a comedic analogy.

    This made me curious to the point of a quick DDG on any smallpox vaccine issues, just out of interest. Found these bits in the first few links (which seem semi-reputable as far as I could tell):

    https://www.drugs.com/sfx/smallpox-vaccine-side-effects.html#

    https://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/smallpox-vaccination-effects#1 - as soon as you mention the possibility of genital corruption, I think I'm out. Not least because that will cause awkward conversations with the missus and the need for her to track and trace the women from any bubble I would have been in to confirm my explanation.

    "A massive program by the World Health Organization (WHO) wiped out all known smallpox viruses from the world in 1977, except for samples some governments saved for research purposes. The U.S. stopped giving the smallpox vaccine in 1972. In 1980, the WHO recommended that all countries stop vaccinating for smallpox."
    The US appear to have called a halt to the programme rather early (making up their own rules as usual, it seems), but then is three years enough time to be sure it's all gone? Whatever - that was more info that caught my eye.

    https://ukhumanrightsblog.com/2020/11/05/compulsory-vaccination-the-next-step-for-covid-19/

    "Would you be first in the queue for the Covid-19 vaccine if and when it is rolled out? Or would you prefer to wait and appraise its effects on more pioneering citizens? With nearly a year of widespread media coverage of the coronavirus, it would not be surprising if a large percentage of an already fearful population exercised its right not to be subjected to what would be an assault and battery under English law: medical treatment without consent. This is a syndrome, and it has a name. It is called “vaccine hesitancy”. The WHO describes this as “the reluctance or refusal to vaccinate despite the availability of vaccines”. Our willingness to avail ourselves of a future COVID vaccine is very much in doubt, and it is in doubt in high places."
    So it's not necessarily ALL a conspiracy - I think the reluctance to have any jab is from one of two camps; those who'd rather not be long-term guinea pigs vs those who think it's all a hoax so why bother.

    Just to be clear, I'm not in the hoax camp. This, however, REALLY worries me:

    "Update: on Tuesday 17 November the Danish government finished considering a new law giving the government extended powers to respond to epidemics. Parts of this law that propose that:
    People infected with dangerous diseases can be forcibly given medical examination, hospitalised, treated and placed in isolation.
    The Danish Health Authority would be able to define groups of people who must be vaccinated in order to contain and eliminate a dangerous disease.
    People who refuse the above can – in some situations – be coerced through physical detainment, with police allowed to assist. See the Danish newsletter here. In this country, Health Secretary Matt Hancock has refused to rule out mandatory inoculation, telling talkRADIO the government would ‘have to watch what happens and… make judgments accordingly’."​

    It does seem completely reasonable to me to isolate people for the good of the rest of the population, but I think it should be made clear to them that if they DON'T take the vaccine/other generally accepted solution being given to the masses, then they'll be staying isolated until it's run its course and they're no longer infectious, one way or the other (main options being death or recovery). There will of course be a resource impact associated here.

    Can you define "groups of people who must be [physically detained and] vaccinated" based on ethnicity-driven susceptibility/vulnerability? Age-driven? Surround them with fences and put them in barracks with guard towers? An extreme (and extremely cynical) example, but I think you see where I'm going.

    Slippery slope, people.

    My view is this:
    • I'm not anti-vax
    • I don't think it's a hoax
    • I don't think a vaccine per se is a bad idea
    • I don't think enough is known about any COVID vaccine, long-term
    • I don't trust the govt at the moment
    • I don't want to regret taking one ten years from now
    Which leaves me firmly in the middle and so I'll wait and play Squadrons for a bit, if that's okay.
     
  14. Gareth Halfacree

    Gareth Halfacree WIIGII! Staff Administrator Super Moderator Moderator

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    Larger and more diverse, in fact. The Oxford vaccine has been tested across four times the usual number of subjects.

    The OVG did a neat video on exactly how the process was accelerated safely:



    Personally, I'll be taking the shot as soon as it's available - as will my wife, and so will our children.
     
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  15. Byron C

    Byron C Over-reacting and over-analysing since 1982

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    I haven't read the rest of this post yet, but wanted to pick up on this point specifically; in fact I'm pretty sure this has already been pointed out several times...

    It was only 'rushed' in the sense that all obstacles to getting a vaccine to market were removed. The vast majority of the time spent in drug/vaccine research isn't actually spent doing R&D or doing the trials: it's waiting for funding, approvals, study participants, etc. That is what was expedited, not the science or the trials.

    And you know what? I think I've been gazumped by @Gareth Halfacree again, literally as I was writing this! :grin:
     
  16. ModSquid

    ModSquid Minimodder

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    They were quick responses indeed!

    Happy to stand corrected, there's so much info and counter-info that I can't keep up with it all. The part I posted was something I saw/read recently (think a news programme), but I do remember now the expediting barriers being mentioned somewhere.

    Can I just reiterate though - my main concern is the long term aspect.

    Oh - and that bit about the civil liberties/detainment stuff seems of note, but I've only just heard about that.
     
  17. Gareth Halfacree

    Gareth Halfacree WIIGII! Staff Administrator Super Moderator Moderator

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    The OVG trialled the core of the vaccine a decade ago, including human testing, with no reports of long-term effects to this day.

    Yes, you can DuckDuckGo side-effects of various vaccines and they're scary - but side-effects are, typically, extremely rare. They're also not exclusive to vaccines. Do you take paracetamol when you have a headache? I do, despite side-effects including bloody or black stools, bloody urine, fever, pain, skin rashes, hives, itching, sore throat, sores, ulcers, inability to pee, unusual bleeding or bruising, unusual tiredness or weakness (as opposed to my usual tiredness and weakness), yellow eyes or skin, nausea, vomiting, abdominal pain, diarrhoea, constipation, dyspepsia, enlarged abdomen, anaemia, postoperative haemorrhage, thrombocytopenia, leucopenia, neutropenia, acute generalised exanthematous pustolosis, Stevens-Johnson syndrome, toxic epidermal necrolysis, Pemphigoid reaction, pustular rash, Lyell syndrome, dyspnoea, pulmonary oedema, hypoxia, pleural effusion, peripheral oedema, hypertension, hypotension, tachycardia, hypokalaemia, hyperglycaemia, dystonia, muscle spasm, trismus, insomnia, anxiety, oliguria, periorbital oedema, malaise(!), and liver failure.

    One of the things that isn't generally understood about drug trials is that side effects are "something someone reported during the trial." The taken-to-extreme demonstration case is a trial subject getting hit by a bus and "death" being listed as a possible side-effect - because, sure enough, the subject died during the trial.

    I'm not saying "don't do your research" here, by any means; I'm saying do your research, but do it properly with context - don't just look at the scary words and stop.
     
  18. Byron C

    Byron C Over-reacting and over-analysing since 1982

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    I'm not doing a blow-by-blow exchange here, since I really don't have time for that.

    The comparison to illegal drugs is a false equivalency. Illegal drugs, by their very nature, are not made in a controlled environment; the ingredients used and the process followed is not controlled or regulated, so nefarious ne'er-do-wells are free to add whatever they please. One ecstasy pill is not the same as another.

    I've heard of the website you linked to and it is not the indepdenent organisation you might think it is. It's basically a site that people can pay to have whatever they want published in it with zero editorial control. It is not a reliable source by any stretch of the imagination. FWIW the phrase they used, 'vaccine hesitancy', is what anti-vaxxers like to call it to make their viewpoint sound more palatable. Literally no one is seriously talking about forced vaccination.

    For a more rational opinion: https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/covid-vaccine-hesitancy/

     
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  19. MLyons

    MLyons 70% Dev, 30% Doge. DevDoge Staff Administrator Super Moderator Moderator

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    the one that sticks out for me tbh
     
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  20. Bloody_Pete

    Bloody_Pete Technophile

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    As some one who has health anxiety I can assure you that you can't focus of side effects of things. Everythnig can go wrong, I have to spend a good portion of the day telling my brain this. The side effect of cars: death, severe injury, polution: lung problems; flying: increased radiation dose if flying high enough, effects of prolonged inactivity, polution: lung problems; ect. The difference is these things don't have a handy leaflet telling us these problems, we just don't think of them. The same for most foods and drinks.

    Thenn as a researcher I can attest that funding is a massive barrier, if we had unlimited funds it would massiely speed up what I do, as would having an abundance of test sites (I do technology research). The actual research bit doesn't take as long by far, and the processes for checks and measures are very robust in my sector, and from friends who work in medicine it's insanely strict!

    So, as someone who has health anxiety, I will be talking the vaccine ASAP, because do you know what has the worst side effects? COVID-19. Death. Long term organ problems. Increased risk of strokes. Increased risk of heart disease. Scarring to the lung tissue. Increased imuno-response to harmess illnesses leading to increased risk of pneumonia. And thats not even everything! But these are all the things that don't get discussed.
     

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