Grammatical standards are all well and good, but once you get to the point of compulsively correcting errors that do not otherwise hinder comprehension, you begin to miss the point of language as a communication tool, I think.
I've been following this thread on and off for a while and from what I can make out you all seem to have this elitist air about yourselves because everything you write is written with perfect grammar. It seems to be your view and pretty much that of most of the world that if you can't spell or have bad grammar that you are indeed" THICK"...Now let me tell you something about myself., I'm 45 years old and dsylexic, I've tried every trick in the book and no matter what, I can not improve, words with ie/ei, er/re le/el being the one's that trouble me most . So therefore because of the way I write I am "THICK" according to you lot.... Now heres some thing I that might confuse a few of you. My IQ is 156 , no thats not a miss print .So therefore that makes me smarter than 99.9% of you. Please feel free to drop a 1000 word essay about this into my inbox if you have any comment.....And it better be perfect...lol
No, I'm perfectly happy with people who are dyslexic. My brother is dyslexic and so is one of my best friends. They're both studying engineering at the best unis in England. They have a huge amount of trouble with spelling, but they don't make simple grammatical mistakes like confusing 'they're/their' and using commas instead of full stops. What gets me is when someone's grammar is bad to the extent that it obscures what they're saying, or that they end up saying something different. Writing an entire paragraph without a full stop has nothing to do with dyslexia. It's just stupid and/or lazy. It doesn't irritate me, it just makes me disinterested. Why should I care about somebody's opinion if they can't be bothered to type it so that it makes sense? Equally obnoxious are people who write complete nonsense, and when you try to decipher it, act enormously offended and say things like "oh no here comes the grammer police." It's just childish. They should make the effort to express themselves properly. Apart from the slightly unorthodox spacing in your post, the grammar is perfect. It's obvious to me that you have trouble spelling, but you understand how sentences work and make sure that you stick to the rules. There's nothing wrong with that. While the above is a defence of dyslexic people, I do assume that people are less well educated if they write things like "could of". It demonstrates a lack of understanding. If someone doesn't understand their own language, do they really understand what else they are saying?
I'm not trying to be a ***** or anything, but honestly, with that post you seem far more "elitist" than anyone else that has posted in this thread. I do apologize if I am misinterpreting your post though, because I am not exactly a master of recognizing the appropriate tone of typed out messages. Anyways, I think you are missing the point of this thread. It is not here so we can complain about people that make mistakes and can't help it, it is here because of all the people that are too lazy to use proper grammar, but are capable. For example, people who type like this "hey guize wut are yer talkin about¿", and are completely serious.
Right , here we go again... ch424.. I totaly agree with your last paragraph, a lot of people do have a rather nasty habit of writing exactly as they speak. I'm a londoner and if i done the same it would be a mass of rhyming slang and verbal, I try my hardest and sometimes I really do have to stick my head in a vice and squeeze it out or else I would be writing in drunken dyslexic welsh. chimmny09...I think you have misinterpreted what I've said slightly if you read back I was pointing out that it seems to be a popular misconception that if you can't spell or have bad grammar that you are stupid. I threw my IQ in purely to make a point. It's taken about 10 or 12 minutes to type this out where I constantly have to read back to check for errors. Maybe some people don't bother and just rattle it off like ch424 mentioned. Give me something taht I've got a good grasp of and I'll sail though it standing on my head. As an example . when I was in school teachers would moan at me for just writing the answers down in maths and not showing how I'd worked it out.My argument would be "well the answers right is'nt it, I done it all in my head why do i need to write it down" Anyway I'm drifting away from the subject slightly but I think you've got the gist of where I'm coming from.
No. This is precisely my point. It's ok to be a pedant to preserve meaning. I know they are trite examples, but "could of", "would of" etc. demonstrate the point perfectly. If you write "could of", it's obvious that you mean "could have" because they sound similar and therefore your point is still conveyed. However, I don't think that is good enough. On a grammatical level, "could of" is nonsense. In the sentence, "I could have tried harder," have tried is a verb in the perfect tense, hence the "have." In "I could of tried harder," there is no verb. The sentence isn't a sentence. If someone refuses to acknowledge that and make the effort to stick to it, they are lazy and/or ignorant.
I am 100% in agreement with you, I understand the way it all works, I will admit to talking that way, but I don't write that way if I can help it . it used to drive my mum nuts,she was constantly telling me that I'm common as muck, but it's also a London thing, I know i'm doing it but I cant stop myself, well I probably could If I tried hard enough. By the same token I could probably pack up smoking if i tried hard enough.
Unfortunately, this depends heavily on how one determines what degree of errors constitutes a hinderance. i cud talk liek dis and u wud undrstand me. I believe that most people will agree with such a level of illiteracy being deemed a hinderance. Using "their" in place of "they're" could easily be deemed a hinderance because such a flaw forces the reader to apply a certain level of thought beyond that of the normal reading process. Simply forgetting a period at the end of a sentence, even if it's the last sentence, requires the reader to think beyond the text and make the determination that the sentence has ended. So where is the line drawn? It's impossible to give a definitive answer. Different people will always have different answers. Just remember that every exception is a compromise, every little flaw which is allowed is a degradation of the language being used.
I've known plenty of people with huge IQ scores but no real brains to back it up. I'm not saying you're not smart, but we have spellcheckers these days. There's a red wavy line underneath misspelled words to help point out that you messed up. There's even a big green wavy line for grammatical errors. I have no clue what being dyslexic might be like (perhaps something like trying to read a book aloud while drunk?) but I'm sure it sucks. With you, you give effort and it shows. Some people just don't try and don't care to, and that shows even more. Don't get me wrong, I can read past a missing apostrophe or a misspelled word here and there. But what I can't read past is horrible grammar. I've seen it ruin otherwise perfectly good Project Logs, blogs, websites, and research papers. You're preparing to read an article on string theory and all of a sudden begin to think that it was written by a nine year old. The credibility goes out the window, regardless of if they have a PHD in physics or not. It's just the honest truth, spelling and grammar makes a huge difference on how people perceive what they're reading. Throughout Jr. High and High School I was horrible in my English class. I still do blame the teachers because the moment I took an English course in college I realized just how far I was behind. I flunked that class but learned so much that when I took it again the next year I received an A in the course. My first A in an English course in the past decade. Now that I understand the basic structure of sentences and paragraphs, my ability to write and express what I really want to say just keeps getting easier. I don't need to write too often for my job, but it comes in handy when they do need me to write a tutorial or something of that nature for a customer. Now, nobody likes a grammar Nazi, if someone wants help they need to ask for it; not be scolded for not knowing how to spell or use English grammar properly. If someone should need or want some help though, then they could come here and ask. Using this thread to help people with grammar/spelling is an awesome idea. I just hope people see this as a safe place to ask a question about English and get some good answers.
I think you will have as much chance of finding some rocking horse poo at the end of the rainbow as people posting on here for advice now. The grammar nazis killed that chance.
You're probably right. This all does remind me of some poetry though. Apart from that, if anyone reading this needs some help with English grammar/spelling, I'd be more than willing to help out. Just PM me and I'll help out as best I can.
It's actually what this thread was supposed to be about so please, do it here I liked your previous post Krog. It made me realized that, despite the fact that I am miles ahead of most of the other French Canadians, I should not consider myself as perfectly bilingual. That would be a mistake which would make me not want to get better. The problem though is that I don't think there is anything left that TV and Internet could teach me. I would need a real teacher who could tell me what my weaknesses are. Lately I have had trouble expressing my thought fluently. It seems like every sentence I write is dumb and doesn't fit with the previous one. Maybe I simply got good enough to finally notice my mistakes, I don't know. (Just typing this tiny text took me like 10 minutes... I wonder what's wrong with me these days)
I have to agree with you 100%. I put my post on after reading through and realizing it had turned in to open season on those of us that are not as precise when it comes to the written word . It now seems to be turning into open season on me, not that I'm bothered, if this thread runs for the next 5 years I'll keep on defending what I have said and the people that are getting slatted, in some cases through no fault of their own.
Just small changes I would make, personally. The choice of though or however is pretty open ended, I feel that however produces a stronger feeling of transition. Some commas were added, though not particularly important ones. It might have just been a typo, but saying thought instead of thoughts says that you have only been trying to express one thought for the duration of lately, obviously not true and a minor error but if it truly was something you didn't notice you were saying then I hope this helps. You might not have asked for such an analysis, but it seems like you're beyond learning from simple lessons. As you said, you're to the point where only a hands on and specific instruction would be of any benefit. In the mean time, try looking at posts around the forum. Look at how the sentences are structured and determine why such a structure was used. Consider the things you observed and how you might with to integrate them into your own post to better convey your meaning. You will eventually find yourself with quite the repertoire.
That is a rather alarmist statement. I was raised multilingually. Many people who are otherwise very literate do not, it seems, understand the concept of language. One thing you must realize about language is that it is and always has been primarily a method of communication. To this end, it has evolved over millennia to become simpler and more direct. We have dropped cases, the subjunctive, and masculine/feminine nouns from our speech (well—largely), for example, in the name of simplicity. Hell, the yanks even cut whole letters out of our words! ;-) Some people seem to think that poetic and convoluted prose is something to be admired, and indeed from an artistic standpoint this is true (although this is not always the case...cf. Camus, Chaucer, Shakey). From a linguistic standpoint, however, this is a backward step. Efficient communication is key. I do not honestly believe that people who make simple errors in punctuation or are unable to correctly use possessive pronouns are deserving of much of the pedantry and even ridicule I see here. Such errors do not really hinder comprehension, nor do they suggest a lack of intelligence, though many people seem to think otherwise. Yes, you may type as if you were communicating through a particularly bad game of scrabble in order to illustrate your point if you like, but to suggest that there is some kind of solid dividing line between "shakespearean" and "cave-dweller" is insulting. My original point was that in continually correcting the speech or prose of another human being, you are negatively affecting your own conversation. You cease to listen to the words that are being said and instead focus on the way they are being presented and utilized. It's nice to see there are others who value the English language, however I must agree with Bulldogjeff that many people in this thread seem to have hijacked this and turned it into a kind of exclusive club. There is an element of superiority in the air here that is pretty distasteful. It would do you well to remember that, however poor the delivery, the text on your PC screen is a manifestation of the thoughts of real human beings, and though they may not present their thoughts in the most coherent or grammatically correct manner, their words are worth listening to.
Thank you very much for that duckies, I'm glad to see some one thinking along the same lines as me. +rep for that mate and I'll even throw in a few kisses as well....lol
As a method of communication, a language also does well to be standardized and consistent. Slowly changes are made, but for the sake of efficient communication using correct grammar and spelling is quite important, sometimes more important than being direct or concise. I'm willing to accept that small flaws are acceptable, but try to remember that they are not correct. I will often not place periods at the end of sentences if they have nothing following them, this is quite common for text messaging. However, I find it important to always be mindful of the full potential of the language and how to properly use it. In a somewhat formal setting such as this it is vital to be able to craft sentences which properly convey our meanings. If I were writing a job application I would be extremely mindful of my writing and draw upon everything in the language which I was able to use. Example, looking over Ghys's post. The small change of though to however is subtle and doesn't actually fix an error, I just feel that it enhances his post and better explains what he's trying to say. Having the extra commas makes the sentence sound smoother and easier to read, even if it doesn't directly enhance the meaning. It's good to have a full understanding of a language, even if you don't always use it. Another example I just saw after hitting Enter, my own limitation of skill has left me with a sentence which does not correctly portray my meaning. It appears to say that I have a full understanding of a language, which I do not (yet/unfortunately). A window has been left open for a miscommunication to occur, that is not good and is not very efficient. As for the bolded text, this is true to a degree, yet also has another side. Too much informality and brevity can easily lead to confusion and distraction. Any effort the reader or listener spends on trying to understand what is being said the less effort he/she is spending on grasping the meaning behind the words.
