Oi bloody lurves this comment, Oi do Yeah, that's true - and we really wish you'd take them back Yup, 's why I stopped. The social element redeems it if you can get a group of like-minded players together, though.
Seeing how fickle I am with gaming it did keep my occupied for an incredibly long time, MMOs are very addictive, I think it's the social aspect of the game that makes it this way. Playing with several people and constantly working towards something with them is a great experience. It's like playing L4D on expert, only your characters improve themselves and their equipment and you're not bound to linear levels. They can be a lot of fun, but IMO, the best MMOs are ones with a good player economy, as it really feels like you can make a ripple in the ocean. Whereas with WoW, there's not really a whole lot of things you can do to effect other players other than PvP and grouping PvE. That's why EVE (massive majority of economy run by players) and PotBS (entire economy run by players) are my favourite MMOs (along with Puzzle Pirates to an extent, but the economy got screwed up and they ruined the game with later features IMO). The traditional style MMO just doesn't do it for me.
Pretty much. In the end the same experiences can be had in more productive ways, though, such as team sports, groups, clubs, societies, etc. WoW just did an exceptionally good job of bringing that kind of pleasure to a section of society who never normally get to experience it. I hate WoW's userbase, so much. Sometimes I have moments of perspective and am astonished at just how much I hate them, and at how ceaselessly, bottomlessly THICK they are. It's like being in a primary school situated in the slums of a large southern-state US city with no teachers and half the kids arbitrarily given giant wooden mallets with which they abuse and mistreat the other half. Calling Brenda Spencer, Brenda Spencer, cleanup on Blizzard Products aisle four.
I had an interesting chat the other day, over a game of L4D and some WoW players. We were under the opinion that L4D or a game like it might make a decent MMO in a Land of the Dead style. A central hub to re-arm, refuel and trade with the campaigns being instanced on different servers. No personal stats to grind, just an economy to support by scavenging in the wasteland.
I could've sworn you said you liked RPGs. Every RPG is a stats-based affair (true RPGs anyway, such as any D&D game, the good final fantasy games, every dragon Warrior/Dragon quest etc.) so to not like stats-based games kinda seems odd. I'm not trying to be an ass and apologize if I'm coming off like one, but that just seemed weird to me was all I am all for this idea. That would be a hell of a fun game. On-topic: I play WoW. 3 hours a day after I get home from work at 5:30 in the morning. I have nothing else to do and I play for a bit until I'm tired and go to bed. I quit playing for 6 months back in January this year and started again in the summer. I will say that I spent much more time outside this summer then I did indoors playing WoW, I still enjoy my time on WoW as I have met some really cool people. Lot's of Aussies play on my server at the same time I am on and it is cool interacting with people who are a few thousand miles away I'm a casual player and I strive to play my character as best as I can, but I'm not one of those people who will play for 10+ hours to make it happen. My work schedule/life do not permit me from doing that, so I play when I can and it is a great way to kind of detach myself from reality for a bit to relax before bed Too bad I can't play with some of you Bit-Tech'ers that play on the EU servers. You should totally play on the US servers
Stats do not make an RPG, it's a very bad common misconception, it's the RP that makes a game an RPG, stats are just a means to an end.
Interesting clarification. Could an RPG be an RPG without the stat systems? I suppose zelda is pretty close, but even that has new weps and little hearts to collect I don't think I fully understand the RPG genre, Bioshock is supposedly an RPG insofaras you play a role and you get upgrades and more health, and FFVII is an RPG because you follow a linear story and control a character who isn't you. But doesn't that make Call of Duty 4 an RPG, since you fill the shoes of the highly set character of 'Soap' McTavish? A lot of games put you in roles, or let you 'make' characters, without them being deemed RPGs. I think our idea of the genre is a bit pigeon-holed. It's more a combination of 'fantasy' elements, character stats and a linear storyline than any one of them, which makes it pretty much a non-genre in my opinion. Oblivion is a fantasy game. FFVII is a fantasy game. Fallout 3 is an FPS. FEAR is a horror game. They all contain 'RPG' elements but it's not what makes them, or what you remember...a lot of people seem to have entirely forgotten that FEAR is, by our current standards, an RPG.
Technically, any game that doesn't allow you to play as yourself is roleplay, it just depends how far you're prepared to take it. I'm not against MMORPGs per say, but the current trend is to follow the leader, so most current MMOs appear to be a clone of WoW or EVE. I like playing RPGs in real life (Dungeons and Dragons/Cybernet/Cyberpunk 2020.) Grinding stats IRL isn't really an option, so more emphasis is placed on the roleplay. Also, in a computer game, the rules are pretty unbreakable and are largely governed by the stats. IRL, the brave can argue the toss with the DM. Mostly over how many times you can 'pay' innkeepers with explosive runes. Actually, I signed up to the 10 day trial for WoW before Christmas and borrowed a friend's DVDs to install the game, but even that was a grind. It wanted to dl a patch over 8 hours. I took it as a sign and cancelled the update 4 hours in.
I lol'd pen-and-paper RPGs sound really fun, I'd love to try one. I don't know a sufficiently nerdy circle of friends though, all my nearest and dearest are more of the "drink till you vomit omgz grate nite out!!" variety.k And yeah...WoW's installation is the main reason I gave it up last month. I do regular reformats owing to hardware swaps and troubleshooting (not to mention a pirated XP copy ) so a game that takes an entire day to install is really asking to be given up. Actually, I should throw that into the New Year's Resolution thread...
Look i play WOW and i have for over 4 months, but im not an addict and i have a lv 19 warrior for my main and a lv 11 hunter for my secondary, i havent played much.....it is an ok game but i like TF2 and L4D aswell.....im not an addict and im not a hater of the game, it a decent game and i have friends who play it constantly, and that is very annoying, but i wont play it like that, they get there charachters from 1-40 in about 4 or 5 days, its really annoying.It is VERY annoying to reinstall aswell, i do agree with boiled_elephant.
Not everyone loves or hates it. I played it for a month or so. I liked some things and didn't like other things. I am very picky about my gameplay mechanics and stuff, so I moved on to a different MMORPG. The addictive thing is pretty much universal though. Everyone seems to get hopelessly addicted to these kinds of games. You have to really use your self control to fight it. You can't see the appeal because you never played it
You've hit the nail on the head there, RPG is a very broad term. You have the original P&P RPGs which the computer games stemmed from, but the translation process wasn't that great, a lot of the RP was lost in the cross-over due to the lack of freedom allowed by a computer game. Even then, P&P RPG is a very broad term too, you get very hack and slash games that focus more on combat and then you get the RP focused games that can sometimes be completely devoid of combat. A combat focused RPG is very easy to make on a computer, but an RP focused one is very difficult to make effectively unless you go for a very rudimentary text based system (essentially a P&P RPG over MSN), the problem is the lack of freedom, when you buy a game you essentially have a pre-generated story that you can have only a small effect over as a player (there are games such as Fallout where you do have more freedom but it pales in comparison to what is possible with a P&P RPG), whereas one of the main points of an RPG is to allow the players to make their own story, they're effectively writing a book together as they go along, character development isn't just you increase your stats, but your character's character develops, just like in a book. A computer RPG came across more as an interactive film or one of those choose your path adventure books than how most P&Ps are played. You're right that pretty much every game now has an element of RP to it, but it's the ones that the RP elements are integral to the game that are considered RPGs. This generally comes across in computer games as 2 things, story (which includes actual character development) and statistical character development. I would consider something like Chronicles of Riddick EFBB to be a shooter/RPG because it does put a lot of focus on the story, this is what I would consider to be the interactive film type of RPG. Then there's something like Fallout 3 which I would consider to be a RPG which is also a shooter that has both stats and story. IMO the most important thing is the story, not making your own character, stats, etc. I think the problem I have is when I play a computer game, I don't use my imagination that much, I absorb what is on the screen, I think the create your own character style game only really translates well if you imagine more rather than watch to fill the gaps that having a create your own character leaves in the story. Think imagining that Gordan Freeman isn't mute and you think up of what he's saying, you fill in the blanks the game leaves due to the inflexibility of using a computer to GM rather than another person. They can be a lot of fun, it's definitely worth trying out one at some point, if you're at uni it's probably worth looking for a RP society. Alternatively if your mates are avid gamers as well as being piss heads (like mine, although not quite so much of the piss heads) then you can probably get them to try it out. Currently I've got most of my friends into boardgaming with me. Not your regular Monopoly though, you won't find these games in the Entertainer, these are awesome geekier games that are sort of like the hardcore video gamer equivalent of the boardgame world. I might grab a copy of Keep on the Shadowfell and introduce them to D&D with that. It's a pre-written adventure that comes with pre-generated characters and quickstart rules so you can get a taste of what the game is like without having to shell out on the core rulebooks and since it's 4th edition D&D it's a lot easier to learn than the previous editions and is more accessible to the more casual gamer. As silver mentioned, there are so many different P&P games for all tastes; Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, Dark Heresy (40k roleplay), Deadlands (think Wild Wild West with zombies and warewolves), Firefly, 7th Sea (swashbuckling RPG), Paranoia (people living in a dystopian enclosed bubble city type thing run by 'friend' computer), many cyberpunk RPGs, the white wolf RPGs where you RP as vampires, warewolves, etc. and many more. RPGs definitely aren't limited to high fantasy.
I really would like to get into P&P RPG again. When I was 16 we had a good good group of friends playing Shadowrun all weekend. I still have about 20 books at home. I am still hoping they make a Shadowrun MMO not that shitty FPS which is out. AFAIK there is no good Cyberpunk MMO on the market or is it?
I hated WoW from the outset. I hated MMO's from the outset. Don't get me wrong, I've tried as many as I can find the time to (Lineage, Lineage 2, SWG, WoW, Everquest II, EVE Online, Warhammer.. whatever the rest of the title was, Tabula Rasa, and hopefully Earthrise). I don't hate them for the fact that some people get addicted to them and screw parts of their lives up over them - Hell, playing WoW too much is much easier to manage than a coke addiction, not to mention cheaper and easier to cancel. I picked up WoW about the time Lich King was announced, perhaps a bit before. My friend, and flatmate, is a big WoW player. It was mainly him going on about it that made me start looking at it and trying not to hate it. I started playing, mainly, because I have (what some would call disturbing) a thing for Blood Elves. Don't know why, but the character design just appeals to me. Got to 31 on a Warlock (Solo, since my friend and his guild are Alliance), and then quit. About a month before Lich King I decided that I wanted to roll Death Knight when the expansion came out, so my friend and his guild boosted me to 50 in about three weeks (Around their raid schedule, hence it taking so long), and I stopped playing until the night before launch. I ground, in the same cave, to 55 for the afternoon of the 13th, and rolled my DK. Got to 67 and quit again, about a month ago. I miss the game in a way, because I really love the art. Especially DK's and Blood Elves. Every time I sit down and think "Maybe I could reactivate my sub and get to 80" I realise that, in the end, I'd be raiding with the guild. And that's where I have a problem. I hate PVP, because it's simply not my game style (Of course, I went and started my DK on a PVP realm because said friend and guild are on that one), and killing the same mob redressed constantly is pretty damn boring. Once you get settled into a routine it becomes and exercise of pressing -maybe- six buttons. I was speccing for high DPS, so I was spread across most of the talent trees, but my most used attacks/spells were Deathgrip, Death Coil, Obliterate, Blood Strike. Repeating the last three until the mob died. I don't know about you, but this got old really damn fast. I did, at one point, try an RP realm. I quickly realised that no one RP's, and those that do generally type-****, which is not on my list of things to do for fun. Aforementioned friend says he enjoys the lore - Which I understand, he was a player of Warcraft for years before WoW, so it makes sense that he'd enjoy that aspect of it. He claims that as a reason I should play, but then, I didn't enjoy the lore in the warcraft games before, so.. Kinda not seeing his point. I hate WoW, and subsequently other MMO's, because they are too simple. You can get into a routine, a very boring routine, of a few key presses repeating until something is dead. I hate to paraphrase Yahtzee, but this is why I like The Witcher. It's an MMO, but single player. The combat is different in that you have to put some thought into your attacks, a lot more than WoW for example. As yet, there doesn't seem to be an MMO like that. I am aware of Darkfall near the end of this month, but I'll be waiting for a trial before I decide on that. I am also aware of Earthrise (Same style as Darkfall, but modern/futuristic), and am hoping to get in on the beta. Both of them sound like they're more involved than most MMO's currently, which is (for me) the major stumling block of WoW - It's not exactly difficult, and this makes it incredibly dull to play (for me). It's sad for the people who have 'lost' friends to WoW, but honestly, they've found something they enjoy doing and that makes them happy - Who are you to say what they should and shouldn't do? I jokingly tell my friend he should quit WoW, because I know that he will when he finds something more fun to do. How many people who claim to have 'lost' someone to WoW or another MMO have tried playing the game with said someone? My friend claims it's payment for adding content, but.. I don't remember any other PC game that charged for patches, and since you have to pay extra for the expansion packs (Which is fine), well..
The monthly subscription is generally to run the servers and pay the staff that support the players. Most games can get away with a couple of people answering questions on a forum or even just pointing people to a FAQ, but these online games have people asking specific questions every minute, and it needs staff to look after that as well as the servers. And usually they do have a development team too which adds free content outside of expansions. I think usually the monthly subscription makes them a lot more profit than they make out, but it's still not really expensive and works out as a very cheap hobby. And if you are playing a few hours a night, then it's working out extremely good value for money. The equivalent time spent renting movies or something would be about a thousand times more expensive.
It's partly payment for content (remember, this is content, not bug fixes or a new map or two, they really do keep on adding tons of stuff to an MMO). There's also the severs to pay for, those a very expensive to run a server that can support several thousand players, or in the case of EVE, about 20k players all at once. Not all MMOs do expansion packs, but when they do they usually do add a huge amount of content, usually increasing content by 50% or more. EVE also has free expansion packs. As far as bang for buck go, if you're really into the MMO then it's probably the best value for money game you can get that isn't free.
Games: Good thing we have a variety, because not everyone likes the same ones. I'm currently playing WoW (again) to be with friends I've gamed with for years. As far as community, graphics, gameplay and challenge, I think there are better overall games out there. However, I'd rather be playing with people I know! Kaavi on Emerald Dream server if anyone else is there.
Didn't yahtzee hate the witcher, deriding it for its similarity to WoW? I certainly don't remember him praising the complexity of the combat. Moot point though, I guess. I know what you mean about WoW's combat: it is ludicrously boring after a while. Once you figure it out, there's nothing new - the only way to inject new intrigue into the combat is to roll a new class, or respec to a different talent tree. People who keep playing it, like your friend who likes lore, are either obsessed with PvP and social gaming or love the environments and design of WoW. I was the latter - I liked the solo gaming experience, the storylines and characters and immersive world design. In the end I gave up for the same reason as you - the gameplay is too duff, and boils down to PvP and raiding.
