Motors The Official bit-tech F1 2013 Thread

There's no denying he's good, but I would stop short of calling him "massively skilled" He has displayed prodigious speed and consistency in a car designed around him, down the length of his toenails.

Put him in a Williams or a Sauber, and chances are he'd be racing mid-pack with the same speed and ferocity but also the same accident rate as Koba, Perez, Maldonado, Grosjean et al. People say he can overtake and point at races like Abu Dhabi 2012. Bollocks, says I. That's just a natural progression up the order when your car is 2-odd seconds a lap quicker than half the field, and a clear half second ahead of your nearest competitor.

This is real overtaking. And there's been plenty of similar action from drivers up and down the field lately, but rarely (if ever?) from Vettel.

 

AMEN! Well said.

I am seeing a movement right now (based on nothing but gut feeling) that makes all the midfield teams training grounds for the bigger teams.

We all know that STR is the breeding pen for RBR. No secrets there.
We also know that Ferrari has a stake in them and in Sauber, what with being engine partner and all.
Now Ferrari is stating that they want to help Jules Bianchi secure the second FIndia seat, meaning they're thinking of paying for that, thus getting one of their FDA potentials tested in a mid-ranked team.
Williams seems to be haemorrhaging staff right now, FIndia is in trouble.
Sauber lost Perez to McLaren, and I am half-expecting these kind of "symbiotic" relationships to continue.

 

That's a fair assessment. It's true the team's built around him, but as a Driver I can't say much bad about him because the guy genuinely puts in time to make the car his car. What I've found strange is that Sauber was the Ferrari feeder team for a while. In fact I honestly expected Perez to replace Massa, poor Massa.

Anyone want to at least give Maldonaldo some credit? Poor guy had an atrocious year outside of his one win. It's a shame he's so skittish though. Then again most of the midfield is rather skittish in action which probably contributes to the accident rate.

Also, Abu Dhabi doesn't count, once things were sorted his car was rather fast. I will say that Newey is pretty much half of the driving force of Vettel even if I think Vettel himself is a decent driver. On a final note, I really do hope FIndia and Williams stay. Their roots are undeniably respectable (Jordan Racing and well...Williams) and they've been around so long.

Moreso for Williams because they managed to pull a win despite being down on the points and such. And anyone remember what a midfield racer the new Senna is? Shame, but that's what happens when you're related to a legend. (the Andrettis, Brahbam etc, Hill is an exception)

 

Don't forget that Senna didn't having the benefit of eating-drinking-sleeping-LIVING racing like the other 19 drivers on the grid. He didn't race following his uncle's death (a time when the Hamiltons, Rosbergs and Vettels were winning kart races as toddlers). He only got back into competitive motorsport well into his teens.

Had he been just a little quicker overall, he probably would have stayed. His consistently wasn't magical or anything, but he was always in the hunt for points and always consistent in bringing the car home in a respectable position. Maldonado, on the other hand, was all fire and brimstone - a couple of great finishes in a litany of incidents and accidents.

 

Maldonado has no place on the grid imo, he's had a couple of incidents where he's purposefully crashed into someone when the red mist came down - that's not the way you behave in a car, full stop.

 

Senna's not quite "out" yet, though.

Caterham still has one open seat. Marussia still has one, FIndia still has (arguably) 2.

Let's assume for a second that Findia makes it through whatever trouble they're in now (rumours are now talking about some German investment company). That would in all likelihood mean that DiResta takes one seat.

Jules Bianchi is backed by Ferrari, Petrov is a known pay-driver, and Senna, as well as Razia have sponsors behind them.
There's also still Sutil and possibly Alguersuari

If the Germans buy FIndia, Sutil is likely. Glock is also not out of the running then.
My guess is that Marussia and Caterham are vying for Petrov right now. The loser takes Senna. Without the Germans, the Force India seat will (IMHO) go to Bianchi, with Force India trying to negotiate an engine deal from Ferrari rather than the current merc then...

 

Cata and maru both want pay drivers. Not certain on this but pretty sure senna is not in this category. Not really sure the force India situation means it would be a place I'd ever be happy to go.

 

Linkage

So get rid of one of the most proven Team Principals... hmm.. seems a tad stoopid.

 

I think it's 50-50.

People often give Brawn the lion's share of the non-driving credit for Schumi's WDCs, but fail to factor in Rory Byrne - the only designer to beat Newey - and Jean Todt, a wily old fox who played politics to get Ferrari what they needed in terms of regulations (remember, unlimited testing, "special" relationship with Bridgestone, etc etc).

I don't think anyone will argue that Brawn GP lucked into their WCC/WDC in 2009 - the car had already been developed the previous year, and has often been described as the most expensive car ever designed for F1. Honda/Aguri poured money into a world-beating 2009 car, made it, and then had to leave the sport, giving Ross Brawn a perfect opportunity to stroll into ready-made infrastructure and equipment, play up the underdog angle, and win the season. I think I've mentioned this before (in the 2012 thread) but the BGP001 was operated on a shoestring budget. Only three chassis were ever constructed (the norm being 6-8 per team) and barely any upgrades were added through the season, which was why RBR had basically caught up to the Brawn cars by mid-season and were regularly challenging them toward the end.

That setup, I believe, is what compromised Brawn v2 (Merc GP). They never really had any experience creating a car, so when the time came to design a new car, they sucked at it for three years in a row. They weren't second or third best, mind. They were a country mile clear of podiums for the majority of their race entries.

TL;DR - Brawn may have been a good team principal, but I think three years is enough time to prove you have something, and he didn't. Good riddance.

 

Interesting thoughts stoned, but I'm not sure I agree completely. He had help at all his previously successful positions, but discounting his skill is similar to saying Schu didn't have the skills needed to take those titles home - it's always a team effort. Mercedes have been lacking in the design department these past few years, is that the team principle's fault? Maybe.

I'd be very surprised if Brawn is completely out though, being a major shareholder in the team still (iirc). Scratch that, they bought him out two seasons ago! I'm so behind.

 

So Joe Saward points out some interesting bits on the Wolff interview on his blog;
http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2013/01/22/the-thoughts-of-toto-wolff/

Amongst others, he mentions Mercedes testing Kubica in a DTM car with potentially checking for the option of squeezing him into a monocoque in the longer term... interesting read...

 

Dumping Brawn is insanity.

Honda didn't listen to him, look how that turned out.
It took him five seasons to get the title out of Ferrari.
Four to get somewhere with Benetton.

You can't just buy a team and expect instant results, especially after the somewhat turbulent year that was 2009. Of course, corporate management types and board members would never admit (or even comprehend) that they are the problem.

The best Formula 1 teams hire competent people, then let them get on with it. Unfortunately the big manufacturers are all far too keen to 'protect' their investment, so they call meetings, demand constant reports, stand over the shoulders of the very expensive experts they've hired. Then they wonder why when these experts are spending days a week reporting to them that the car always lags in development.

Mercedes seem to have learned nothing from BMW, Toyota and Honda last decade, which is unfortunate for them, but especially bad for Hamilton and Rosberg...

Never hurt Senna sr though.

 

I think Senna did it in a calculated, often coldly easy, manner to gain example..

Maldonado just seems to want to hurt people half the time.

 

That's why I started my post saying it's 50-50. The reasons I gave were on the side of "sacking him makes sense" and the reasons against are clear to see in every team he's been a part of, outside of MercGP.

I'd be interested in seeing what comes of a return. Some drivers go from near-death to WDC (Hakkinen, Lauda come to mind) and others don't really do too well (R Schumi, Massa).

He was one of the most promising drivers on the grid before the accident, and I am sure he would have been utterly beastly in last year's Lotus.

I think the difference is that with both Benetton and Ferrari (during the non-Championship winning years) his teams were still regularly at the pointy end of the standings. IIRC Benetton was usually 2nd or 3rd, and Ferrari came second for something like four years straight before clinching the WCC in 1999.

He hasn't even managed to replicate that modest level of success at Merc GP.

This may or may not always be true. Look at Red Bull. Marko and Mateschitz are always poking and prying. McLaren was micromanaged by Ron Dennis but no one complained as long as they were winning. It used to be the same with Williams until fairly recently.

But when the same approach backfires it's called poor management. Hardly fair.

The one thing BMW and Toyota (I won't say Honda, because they had a fairly successful history in F1 before they decided to spring for a works team) didn't learn was that F1 requires commitment. Both of them were too flighty.

 

This. Read into his background if you haven't already. Quite shady IMO, especially with dodgy behaviour around a ban he received in 2005, and then dodged

 

F1 requires a £2billion commitment to really give it a go. Anything below this and your basically just wasting money for no reason. 2bil is about 5 -7 years at current development rates and if your not competitive by the end you have failed.

Think theres at least 5 f1 drivers whos futures are debateable at the end of this year

Massa ( will likely retire)

Paul Di resta ( If he does not get a top team drive will Force India want to keep him on knowing his heart is in another place, All well and good saying you want to drive for these teams but force india have spent probably half a billion to develop the car your driving so some respect for them perhaps.)

Maldonado ( Think hes on a tight rope one more major incident ( example would be ramming hamilton after qualy and i think he could be looking at a decent lengh race ban)

Grosjean ( will be dropped if he does not pick up his performances for lotus)

Webber ( Retirement)

Which gives a few open seats for young drivers to take in. All the major teams have young drivers comming through who are looking for drives. You just wonder if one of them will take a chance similar to how hamilton got his drive.

 

Red Bull have more or less completely avoided it, they brought in Horner and Newey, installed Marko and that's been it. Mateschitz goes to Marko, Marko is a constant within the team, but defers to Horner when it comes to racing.

Compare to Toyota, where 'Japan' would constantly demand updates weekly, then demand authorisation for any and all new projects run through the them. Toyota wasn't flighty, they built a team from scratch, poured north of a billion dollars into it over nearly a decade. Unfortunately they tried to run it like it was an extension of the road car business and F1 doesn't work like that.

Mercedes have followed a similar pattern to all three teams the last three years, starting strongly, then steadily being out-developed.
Merc performance bears a lot of signs of interference, especially with the current rumours about Brawn getting the chop and Haug suddenly going.

I wonder where all this leaves Hamilton's view on the team as well, whatever Merc's upstairs say, he will have signed up with Brawn('s history) being a major draw. He certainly didn't just leave McLaren to end up back answering to Paddy Lowe.

 

/conspiracy hats on

Maybe that was the plan all along! For Hammy to poach Lowe for Merc!

 

Lotus have announced that they'll be unveiling the E21 online at 19:15 GMT on Monday, so that will be our first glimpse of a 2013 car.

 

I think the Merc worries for Hamilton are overplayed.
Hamilton normally doesn't smile and wave for cameras (much), and everything he's said about Mercedes was positive. Sure, it's a new team, and there's almost definitely some politics in there as well, but Hami's never been good at masking feelings.

My speculation remains that Brawn abandoned last year's campaign to get into a better position this year. I think that Merc might surprise us.