Discussion in 'Article Discussion' started by Sifter3000, 30 Aug 2010.
There are many arguments in defence of such titles, but they are for another day and another thread.
"There is no defence for such titles (Legal or moral)."
Debatable, but that aside, I honestly see no reason that Joe's enjoyment of Postal 2 is any less obviously abhorrent than someone else enjoying Rapelay. General morals would agree, a sadistic killer receives more jail time than a molester, but there is a strange double standard when it comes to media.
On topic, I agree with Joe to an extent... though I can see having your character get raped because you don't have adequate gaming skills as being upsetting to enough players that excluding it was probably wise from a business sense.
Hmm. You make an interesting point. I suppose part of the issue is that games like Rapelay are done in such a way as to be as realistic as possible (or realistic to the fantasies, anyway) and deal with something that is considered to be further outside the social norms. Most games are about killing, so it normalises that idea compared to rape in games somewhat.
It's worth mentioning that Postal 2 is clearly intended as black humour too. It's not an incredibly good one and is shot full of holes, but at the end of the day there is a certain level of humour to shoving a cat on your gun as a silencer. The same isn't true of simulated rape and groping. It's also easier to draw a line between the two - to find the detachment between real life and play.
I'd also think there's a degree of meta-judgement built into the games too, which is part of an issue. When you do something evil in Postal 2 then you know that you're doing something evil because of in-game actions. Locals will turn on you, police will hunt you - the game makes an implied judgement that you are evil and makes you aware of your demonisation. It's pretty clear in Postal 2 that you are playing a bad man.
In games like Rapelay however, that isn't true. The rapist is presented as sympathetic and normal to a degree, able to get away with what he's doing. It minimises that demonisation and, while victims do resist, that's really the whole point and therefore becomes a good thing to players.
With my own personal reactions to Postal 2 however, I make it clear that I loathe the game and recognise it as terrible. The fact that it's a bit moreish and occasionally fun is almost an entirely different topic. I recognise the in-game actions as abhorrent and I don't play it because I like that (in fact, I haven't played in at least five or six years). I play it for the reasons outlined in that post, which are totally distinct.
Mafia 2's fault isn't simply that it brooks the topic of rape and it certainly isn't that it doesn't approach the subject in an immature way, it's just that it could have explored the topic in greater detail and yet chose not to.
It shows you how desensitised we have become to murder and death in computer games. We do not seem to even raise an eyebrow at 'murder simulators' (to quote the media) but we find a 'rape simulator' so disturbing.
Presumably because man has been killing man since time immemorial. And we see it reported on TV every night of the week. I don't think it's just in computer games were we've become desensitised to murder and death.
It's not a game I have played or am likely to, but how do you know Vito gets raped? Do those other criminals tell him that's what they are going to do to him? Is there some mention of it later?
If he is raped then giving you a game over is just bad form, if it turns out he is killed, then I could accept the game being over. At least in a game we usually have some say in to how those actions are carried out or some way to deal with or handle them in our own way.
This isn't the first game to given more exposure due to the content, with the recent political outcry because of terrorism being included in a game, people really should remember that these are games, which are rated appropriately for their audience.
Unlike TV where the various soap shows that even younger viewers can get to watch and they can approach subjects like rape, murder etc.
...and rape is something invented 10-15 years ago... no wait
You don't get away with it, the girl kills you - and there's alternative ending.
Now that's black humour!
There are lots of games where people are killed, but most often these are war sims like COD etc. Even in GTA or Mafia, it's "honourable" killing between criminals. I can't think of many games where you get to control a sadistic serial killer. And don't say Splatterhouse, because Jason Voorhees isn't real.
You never hit a passerby in GTA...right
or 5, or 20, or tried how many you can run over before the cop-choppers get you. Who else? *raiseshand*
And sometimes, presumably by mistake, the occasional wo-man...thus ensuring the proliferation of the species.
it's probably because it's a console game.. there was no soap or tuna fish sandwiches strapped to any asses either- oh well
I have a bunch of problems with the reasoning in this article. First, we need to establish who the audience of the game is, and what is its purpose.
Modern Warfare 2 aims to give you a fair approximation of the war experience, with all its horror and dubious morality. You can shoot innocent civilians... will you? Similarly, Medal of Honour has a graphic scenes straight from films like Saving Private Ryan which convey the message that real war is definitely not a game. That is the purpose of those games: to give you the sense of a realistic experience.
Kingpin was a (dis)organised crime game that courted controversy (there is no such thing as bad press) by showing violence in gory detail, but it was also a consciously stylised depiction of crime and violence, like for instance the film Sin City was. GTA and Mafia (2) are similarly caricatures of organised crime, not unlike Miami Vice of the 80's. Real organised crime does not look like that. You are playing a game, a fantasy: the Bad Guy in the film (who gets all the best lines, the best chicks and the best cars --unless he is the guest villain in a Batman movie).
But a game does not have to be realistic to teach you something. Tale of Tales' The Path is pretty surreal, and there is definitely some unpleasant stuff happening to young girls, but it is not gratuitous --there is a message in there. It has a purpose.
So realistic or fantasy, you have to ask yourself what purpose a graphic rape or murder scene has in a game. As I said before, in Modern Warfare 2 the purpose is arguably to allow people to experience by proxy what war is really about and to make people reflect on it, and their choices and actions in it. In Kingpin it seemed to be mainly a selling point; there is no learning from it, no reflection on it, no consequences. In The Path the apparent purpose seems to be to steer the main character, a young girl, straight into a situation where she will get harmed or violated. But it doesn't get gory or graphic and for all its surreality there are realistic consequences. There is a story being told.
There is a consensus in the movie industry that the sex scene in Don't Look Now is possibly the most beautiful scene of its kind ever filmed. This is because although explicit, it is not gratuitously graphic and it has a central point to make to the story line. The sex does not depersonalise the characters; it makes the viewer experience them, and their fragile reconnection after the death of their child, as more real. Similarly the violation that happens to the girls in The Path makes you empathise with them as they learn life's harsh lessons. The experience of Modern Warfare 2 feels more real because you are put in the position of making moral choices.
Should there be a rape scene in Mafia 2? Only if there is a point being made. Organised crime is not glamorous; it is nasty, seedy and dangerous. If you are going to include a rape scene, let's include the violence and intimidation: the killing of innocent civilians as they cry and plead for their lives, the torture and cold execution of the competition (you get to wield the razor and blow torch yourself!). And of course all the random violence and death done onto your character. There will be no chicks and no cars --most people in organised crime never make it past the grunt stage.
But then I suspect most people won't think it's fun any more.
I don't get all the negativity. I thought the prison part was brilliant, both in terms of the story and the progression of time, and that it allowed you to meet new characters and learn how to fight properly. As for the shower scene I don't think any of what you said is necessary. It was menacing enough to have that fat f*** come at you. I kicked his ass first time and moved on. I don't think there needed to be anything else.
Woohoo! Write it to Rockstar!
Wait, wasn't all this in "Bully"?
Thanks for the massive spoiler, hasn't been out a week and you have that headline on the front page?
Sorry but thats crap and stupid - could've had a slightly less obvious headline, like "Mafia 2 prison shower scene"?
or 'don't drop the soap in mafia 2'
joe needs an animated gif of vito dropping the soap and a fat guy sweet in the pants coming in from behind
wasnt really a rape scene....it should have been explicite...why would 4 guys go one on one with vito....i dont think so, 3 to pin him down and one to have fun...but it was pointless being there in the first place. Most of the game is pointless....Graphics are stunning though...and after youve finished the game you cant keep on playing....how do i get a million dollars?
Hang on a minute.. you mean I wasn't supposed to finish him off?
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