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News THQ: No sympathy for second hand game buyers

Discussion in 'Article Discussion' started by CardJoe, 24 Aug 2010.

  1. DriftCarl

    DriftCarl Minimodder

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    I dont know why they are moaning so much, pretty much every other product that isnt food can be sold second hand and manufactures dont go round making statements that they feel cheated.
    games developers have to realise that they are not special, they provide a product that is bound by the rules of everything else. You can sell stuff to other people, it is more economical buying a 2nd hand one over a brand new one.
     
  2. mastorofpuppetz

    mastorofpuppetz What's a Dremel?

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    What blows my mind is the prices for second hand games, 54.99 instead of 59.99 for new? LMAo, who is dumb enough to play nearly full price for second hand games>?


    I actually dont mind this, Devs get nothing when you buy second hand, people who buy the full price, should get priority.
     
  3. Phil Rhodes

    Phil Rhodes Hypernobber

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    Console owners.
    Console owners are dumb enough to pay £50 for games in the first place.
    Console owners are dumb enough to buy wrestling games.

    Console owners are pretty stupid.
     
  4. javaman

    javaman May irritate Eyes

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    Cause if they don't care about the second hand market Im pretty sure the consumer won't care much about the company when they torrent the game. If your in the entertainment buisness you don't piss on the people who you design the product for. Maybe a different model is needed but playing the role of the evil corporate giant stomping on consumers certainly isn't the way to go about it. ATM people feel the companies are just ripping too much profit out of games and with the current climate not everyone can afford a new game. I've pretty much stopped gaming over the last 6 months and only last week picked up 4 2nd hand PS2 games for under £20 in game. If developers made games for people rather than their bottom line then the consumer would more likely repay them being the game new in the first place.

    On the other side of things, Game and gamestop have ever increasing 2nd hand selections. One game store in belfast only stocks chart PS3 titles new and chart and a handful of simulation PC titles. The 360, DS and wii games have more selection but the 2nd hand market for 360, PS2 and PS3 games is whats keeping that store afloat. A move such as this probably would nail the coffin for these stores that are loosing out to online stores and supermarkets as it is.
     
  5. Tsung

    Tsung What's a Dremel?

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    I think people do not understand the point.. If Gamestation sell one NEW copy of {Insert game name here} the publisher/developers recieves some sort of payment for it. If they then resell it again 2nd hand, the publisher gets nothing for it. I don't understand why people think it's ok for the publishers to carry on supporting these 2nd hand sales when they recieved nothing for it.

    It's the middlemen (Game/Gamestation/CEX) who make the real profits in the 2nd hand market. I dont hear them saying "Well we made £20 profit on that 2nd hand sale, so we're going to give £5 to the publishers/developers". (Maybe they do?)

    If people cannot afford new games they nearly always end up at a reduced price later on (Either thro' special offers or budget ranges). If they buy them new they are supporting the industry who can then go on and make better games.

    The "Any other product" argument is rather weak. If you buy anything 2nd hand and it breaks (or is broken) the original manufacture won't fix it or replace it for free. Yet developers are expect to support their 2nd hand games for nothing. Thus it ain't greed, if you buy it new you get all the features (including the ones that cost money to support). If you buy it 2nd hand you should have to pay for any additional support features (eg. online multiplayer servers).
     
  6. liratheal

    liratheal Sharing is Caring

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    Sorry, but you are so horribly wrong it's gone beyond funny.

    Someone buying a second hand copy DOES equal a lost sale. The game has sold, but the dev/pub has not been paid for it. These buyers are more than likely the first ones to moan that DLC isn't free. That's not just a lost sale, that's a moaning customer because they're not getting everything for damn near nothing. These games cost a lot to make, and they do see diminishing returns.

    To put it into perspective:

    Saints Row 2 sold, in 20 weeks, 2.97 million copies over PS3 and 360 platforms. Even with this sales figure, they made such a low net profit they had to cut 250 employees. 250 employees that had already been paid. They weren't getting an extra sum of money, they were unable to continue their contracts because they didn't make sufficient to do so.

    The problem with second hand buyers not paying the developer comes when the developer releases DLC, patches, content etc. Most of these small items are negligible in cost, or even free, and the second hand buyers are getting it for nothing, or next to nothing, in terms of paying the developer. That is what they're taking issue with, and they can't go out charging for every piece of content as users like you moaning gits would cry foul that they were trying to make money.

    To argue that a second hand sale is "not lost revenue" is so utterly retarded I cannot even begin to fathom.

    As a side note: If you buy a new car, does (For example) Ford come along and add new things here and there, for either free or a negligible fee? No. Comparing games as they are now to car sales (second hand) is daft, because once you own the car the manufacturer makes no changes. Once you own the game, chances are increasingly high that the developer will be adding to it for a fair while, for free or next to nothing.

    If you keep asking for everything free, you're going to drive them into such a loss of revenue that they'll simply close.

    They're saying if you give them nothing, you've not given them a reason to give a rats backside about you, and fair play to them. They're not all making millions each, in fact, quite a large portion of the games development industry can be devilishly underpaid. Most people are just content to focus on the richest ones and forget about the rest, which is horribly unfair to the vast majority of the people that make the things that entertain us for hours on end.
     
  7. Fingers66

    Fingers66 Kiwi in London

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    liratheal, firstly chill out, this is a discussion, not an attack on you personally.

    Secondly, I'm sorry, but your automotive analogy doesn't add up.

    With a car, it gets sold second hand but the manufacturer will honour any warranty left. Ford would not start trashing the second hand buyers of their cars. Your analogy is like saying that Ford should get a cut of every second hand Ford sold. They actually do earn from the second hand market through parts and repairs. The game developers can earn through the second hand market via paid for DLC, which has been mentioned earlier in this thread, if they choose to do so.

    With a second hand game, the developer will honour the "warranty" (e.g. patches) for a limited time but are not entitled to a cut of the resale. They have already got their cut of the first purchase price - do you think they should get a cut of the resale price as well?

    If the game is good enough, more people will buy it new than second hand AND the second hand market will prolong the popularity of the game - thus rewarding the developer with a reputation for making such a great game. This is known as goodwill when buying a company and can lead to an increased share price of said company - would they complain? This also in turn will increase the demand for the next game they make (until they cock it all up ala CoD).

    If the game is pants, maybe more will buy it second hand (after the new buyers get rid if it cos it's pants) or when the new price has dropped to encourage purchases. Not everyone has the dosh to buy a new game when they don't think it is worth the money, they would rather buy it second hand or at a bargain sale 6 months after release.
     
  8. mastorofpuppetz

    mastorofpuppetz What's a Dremel?

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    LOL, true.
     
  9. calon

    calon What's a Dremel?

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    All's fair in love and war and economics.

    2nd hand buyer don't give a flying pooh about the companies, they only care about keeping as much money in their wallet as they can, but will not say so because it's never fun to admit being cheapskate, so they'll usually plead that games are too expensive while plying on a 1k $ computer or on a brand new ps3 on a huge HD TV...

    On the other hand, companies don't give a flying rat's rear about their customers except for getting at what's inside their wallet, but they usually shy away from admitting at being greedy *******s because it's bad PR to say it out loud when they're reaping historically huge profit.

    So actually, having someone come out and say it is pretty refreshing imho.
     
  10. steveo_mcg

    steveo_mcg What's a Dremel?

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    liratheal, look at it this way: Why does the Games industry deserve this special protection the rest of the world doesn't? Not an attack just a question, in your opinion why does the games industry deserve that every product they sell should be brand new and they get the cut they believe they are entitled to? Ford doesn't, IBM don't, Nvidia don't. Only people who do are food firms and oil firms that is for fairly obvious reasons.

    The fact they work on wafer thin margins and have to lay people off if their product fails to market is no different from any other firm or industry. If Glaxo lose a medicine because it doesn't pass the regulator they stand to loose BILLIONS and may have to lay staff off. This is written into the business model.
     
  11. Sloth

    Sloth #yolo #swag

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    Same. Only bought three games used (FFVIII, FFIX, Metal Gear Solid. None being made anymore), and only sold one game. The second hand market is one which I can't really understand the need for.

    But hey! People are always going to want something from nothing. You've got to be careful arguing with people who think they are entitled to a luxury market. Take the arguments about used cars. Sure, plenty of other items such as cars can be sold second hand and all the car companies still do just fine. But that really doesn't matter if a developer feels like taking away that option, just because every other market lets you sell second hand doesn't mean that games devs are bound by some moral code to do the same. Yet people will always feel otherwise because they just don't get that games are not necessary and if devs feel like changing the market to something you don't agree with then tough cookies. Maybe they'll go bankrupt because of it, but that's life.
     
  12. DragunovHUN

    DragunovHUN Modder

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    So?
     
  13. Fingers66

    Fingers66 Kiwi in London

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    In the interests of balance I can disclose that I have never bought a second hand game. I have only ever bought new games but that is few and far between, mainly due to time constraints and the fact that very few games are good enough to make me want to buy them.

    However, I believe there is a place for the second hand game market. I do not think it costs a developer more to support the second hand market as this is the digital age - they are supporting it anyway - and they cannot distinguish between first hand and second hand copies of the game.

    I do not think that a second hand sale is stealing from a developer, which seems to be the inference, unless you believe that a developer is entitled to a cut from the second hand resale price. If a developer wants to charge for patches to cover the cost of support, fine, let them do it but how do they tell the difference from the people who have bought new from those who have bought second hand? In addition, they would surely suffer a s**tstorm of bad PR wouldn't they?

    I have no problem with them differentiating a product for a first time buyer - see the "veteran" tags in BFBC2 for example - and charging accordingly. What I do not want them to do is proactively punish second hand game buyers. If they want to charge the second hand market for DLC that first hand buyers get with the game for example, fine, let them. The market will decide if it works.

    I do not support the argument that the second hand game buyer wants something for nothing. If they did, why would they pay anyone anything for the game when they can just pirate it?

    Note to THQ: bad mouthing a legitimate market isn't good business practise.
     
  14. mattbailey

    mattbailey What's a Dremel?

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    I'll make THQ a deal - you generate a new game engine everytime you make a new game and i'll buy an original everytime - 2nd hand works both ways!
     
  15. thehippoz

    thehippoz What's a Dremel?

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    it's kind of risky I would think.. but given the target audience- who knows it might increase sales

    they'd eat a stool if you waved it in front of their face xD ok bad joke
     
  16. KayinBlack

    KayinBlack Unrepentant Savage

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    I'm a game developer (PC only) and you know what? THQ will never get a dollar of mine again.

    I buy almost exclusively used. Mostly because while I like a game, the people that publish it are dicks (like THQ) and do not deserve my money. I don't have a single console online, and I don't give three dicks in a blender about DLC. Normally, my purchases are something like Rogue Galaxy for 7 bucks. It's been out forever, I just needed a new RPG.

    Do I think people will pirate my game? Surely. There's a simple thing that will help me keep people from pirating.

    The book and the game are linked. Download it, and you'll be flying solo. The publication will include extra material the online doesn't. Flying solo on a big FF style game is difficult, to say the least. You also miss out on the artwork and game music. Give them a reason to want to buy, and you just might get them TO buy.
     
  17. Krazeh

    Krazeh Minimodder

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    If you buy almost exclusively used games then I can't imagine they'll be all that upset about never getting a dollar of yours again. Find it strange tho that as a game developer you have no problem with buying pretty much all your games through a method that does absolutely nothing to support teh industry in which you work.
     
  18. somidiot

    somidiot Minimodder

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    That's lame, It's like a car manufacturer saying that used car lots hurt their sales.

    Besides, if you get a game that you find you like used you might be willing to get the sequel or other games in the franchise. How is that hurting your business if the game would otherwise be sitting on a shelf somewhere, not being played?

    I can understand the business model of one time codes but it seems a bit extreme.
     
  19. steveo_mcg

    steveo_mcg What's a Dremel?

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    I don't understand this reasoning that the gaming industry needs support its a multi million pound sector it no more needs support than car or processor manufacturing.
     
  20. eddtox

    eddtox Homo Interneticus

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    Yes. Because - and get this - the publisher hasn't done any more work. Nothing. Zilch. Nada. No work - no pay. Your builder doesn't take a cut of the selling house. Why? Because he already got paid once when he built the house.

    When a customer purchases a game they are paying for a licence for 1 (or two or 4 etc) person to play the game, usually for an indefinite time period. In most cases, the publisher the supports the game with patches/tech support for a couple of years.

    If that customer decides to transfer (sell) his licence to somebody else, he forgoes his right to play the game in favour of the other party. However, this makes no difference to the publisher/dev as they still only have to support one user (the new one - because the old one no longer uses their services).

    Therefore the publisher/dev doesn't have to do any more work than they would have to do for the original user. I.e: it does not affect them in any way.

    What you may or may not understand has little relevance to the argument (look up the 'argument from ignorance' logical falacy)

    The middlemen make a profit because they have to purchase the games, restock them and sell them on. In short, they do work. The developer has no involvement in the process. Again - no work, no pay.

    Most manufacturers have to provide some form of after-sale support (whether in the form of a warranty/guarantee or something else).

    The publisher/dev has already been paid for that by the original buyer. They are simply transferring their rights to those services to a third party.

    As for liratheal's comments - it's been a long time since I've seen so much incoherent blathering in a single thread. I understand you're foaming at the mouth, but unless you can put your points in some form of remotely logical framework, I'm just not gonna bother reading them any more.
     
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