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News Tom Clancy's Endwar PC delayed due to piracy

Discussion in 'Article Discussion' started by CardJoe, 9 Oct 2008.

  1. C-Sniper

    C-Sniper Stop Trolling this space Ądmins!

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    I honestly think that the best way to go about the piracy issue is by using networks like Steam to distribute the games electronically. 9/10 if you have a machine that is good enough to play Crysis, you probably aren't on Dial-up so the argument about downloading taking to long is trashed. I honestly think that in the future we will see a move away from a physical medium to an electronic one from which we get our games.
     
  2. Lepermessiah

    Lepermessiah New Member

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    It is the same and should follow the same rules, something does not have to be physical in nature to be classified as stealing, that is an ignorant and moronic statement. In fact, physical things often take much less work from less people to make then sonething like an IP.
     
  3. cjmUK

    cjmUK Old git.

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    Good analogy.

    Bad analogy - the people who pirate don't also produce their own high quality games.

    There is *some* merit in this, but just as the publishers can easily quantify lost sales to prove a theft, nor can you prove that there is no loss of sales and thus no theft.

    Yes. You friend has paid for his book and while he lends it to you, he can't read it himself.

    That said, he can give you, or sell you the book quite happily. Under Steam, you can effectively read the book 'while at his house' or perhaps he will get a pass from Steam so that you have a day to read the book - a trial, if you will. But he cannot sell you the book, nor can he easily give you the book.

    Steam (as it currently stands) is not the utopian answer to piracy. Unless you are Valve.

    The entire industry would love to move across to Steam-like distribution platforms, because it is even more restrictive than the game-in-a-box retail model, and makes piracy very hard.

    The rules are not entirely the same but they are substantially the same. With piracy, you aren't paying for the game, you aren't legally demoing the game, you aren't being lent the game by someone who has the legal right to do so. You are using a product or service that you haven't an entitlement to use. That is theft, however you like to dress it up.

    The publishers have a lot to answer for, but yes, you are justifying piracy.
     
  4. pimlicosound

    pimlicosound New Member

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    So...Tom Clancy's EndWar. Did anyone actually care much about this to begin with?
     
  5. bbshammo

    bbshammo Member

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    Wow, not refering to you particularly... more for the likes of Lepermessiah... but some people are clearly very emotionally affected by all this.

    Guys, I'm not and have never said or typed a thing that suggests that those who pick up freely available copies (akin to helping oneself to the contents of an open box in the street) are not being a bit naughty, but their act is NOT THE ACT OF ACTUALLY COMMITING THE CRIME OF ILLEGALLY MAKING AVAILABLE/DISTRIBUTING PROTECTED IP!

    The latter point is THE point, the law recognises that fact in every other offense where multiple parties all contribute to any particular set of events constituting a crime or offense, and it's EXCEPTIONALLY important to make punitive measures fit the crime based on cause and effect relatioships as well as the material impact to individuals, and society at large, for example... NOT blanket accountability where everyone potentially involved just lines up to be shot.

    Taking things that you intend to benefit from with no intention IS naughty, agreed and never disputed, and depending on how you come to posess it, also a crime. It is not a crime in of itself; no one has ever or will ever be prosecuted successfully for taking something that's a result of someone elses criminal act where neither party colluded to make it happen.

    Sorry to seem to shout there, but it's clearly obvious my point is getting lost somewhere.


    Sorry dude, you're so off the mark I can't respond without literally reacting to every word! I think you just need to understand there's a real distinction between those who copy and upload and those who take, for the reasons I put previously.

    Basically, Piracy is the actual act of taking from the owner. People who download with p2p tools/services are taking a copy from someone else who took it from someone else and so on and so on.... The person you take it from didn't charge you for it, neither did they communicate with you, instruct you, or in any way profit from your choice to take from him.

    So if I take from someone else on that basis, what have I done personally, wilfully and directly TO the original owner? I didn't do a single thing to initiate or carry out or support the criminal act that led to my being able to take a copy for myself.

    The act of actually going to the effort of copying and upploading would never enter my head, so like so many other people reacting to your damning response, I would take slight offense at being labelled as a criminal for a minor act of naughtiness, as a result of someone elses actual criminal act.

    This is all without even going into the 1 copy = 1 lost sale debate, which is already on seriously shakey ground!
     
  6. cyrilthefish

    cyrilthefish New Member

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    One important point people seem to forget in these arguments is that piracy is not stoppable.

    Let me repeat that for emphasis: piracy is not stoppable

    You can minimise piracy as best you can, but any software can and will, always be pirated. It only takes one person to crack it and put it on the internet. The same is equally true for consoles as well as PCs

    Analogy time:
    -car 'a' has security on it (door lock, maybe an alarm) to stop it being stolen. it works quite well and doesn't irritate the driver too much, but the car can still be stolen if someone is determined enough
    -car 'b' has 5 locks on each door and requires a phonecall to another company to start the car, this annoys the owner greatly but the car can still be stolen if someone is determined enough.
    would you buy car 'b'?

    I know it's a somewhat vague analogy, as a physical object is not the same as software. But the point is that past a certain point, increasing the security has no effect on things being stolen, but does effect the legit owners. This point has been reached and exceeded greatly by certain software companies already *glares at EA*

    I'm not condoning piracy, but you simply need to accept that it's going to happen regardless. All you can do is strike a balance between enough security to stop casual piracy without annoying legit customers too much.

    Also give people a reason to want to buy the game, make it easy to buy, easy to use and even some online features if relevant

    Because at the moment it's backwards: legit games are actually inferior to the pirated versions. People see this and think "why should i pay for this when i can get a better product for free?"

    Steam has it nearly perfect, i can see a game i like, buy it, download and play quicker than getting it off a torrent site, with auto-patching and online features... ie: a better product than an illegal copy.
     
  7. pimlicosound

    pimlicosound New Member

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    As I've explained in my earlier post, guilt is equally applicable to both parties; however, I agree that the uploader-pirate is guilty or more and of greater infractions, and should be the one to receive the harshest punishment, much like a drug dealer is judged worse than his clients.

    However, that doesn't change the fact that there can be no uploading and no illegal distribution without willing downloaders, who must accept their culpability.

    The real sticking point is the charge of "making available", which I believe should only be a basis for conviction if the prosecution can prove intent to distribute or a negligence of care to protect the copyright accepted as part of the purchase agreement.
     
  8. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper New Member

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    The work involved in making something have nothing to do with the topic. To say that IP obey same rules as the physical one is as if you saying that all water act the same as a bottle full of water. When you buy music you don't buy the CD, you are buying the music store on it and that information does not obey the same physical rules as the CD it is store at because, well, it is not physical. You, as most of the peaople, does not make difference between the container that stores the information and the information itself.
     
  9. CMW

    CMW PermaFlabberGasted

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    Quote:
    The act of actually going to the effort of copying and upploading would never enter my head, so like so many other people reacting to your damning response, I would take slight offense at being labelled as a criminal for a minor act of naughtiness, as a result of someone elses actual criminal act.

    So, the person downloading is not the person who posted it, calls it a 'minor bit of naughtiness', knowing that he/she is DOWNLOADING SOMETHING THEY SHOULD BEPAYING FOR!! That makes the downloader not a thief?

    What did your parents teach you about respect for someone else's property?
     
  10. DarkRose

    DarkRose New Member

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    Meh, I don't torrent games, and I don't own a console, and won't own a console, so any developer that doesn't offer a PC version is definitely a lost sale. On my tight budget, it would have to be the greatest game ever made (to me) to even consider buying a console. So that's out.
    No PC version, no sale.
     
  11. rollo

    rollo Well-Known Member

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    you cant really pirate blizzards games. As they have one use cd key
     
  12. Lepermessiah

    Lepermessiah New Member

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    Just becasue it is available means the person stealing it is not at fault? WOW, what a dumb thing to say. It is still stealing, PERIOD. If someone puts a CD in your pocket and u knowingly walk out the store, still stealing. Man, how can anyone defend this is mind boggling. Both parites are at fault, not just the ones making it available. It takes 2 to tango, if no one stole it no one would make it available.
     
  13. tech9

    tech9 New Member

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    i truly believe that most if not everyone is missing the entire point you shouldn't point the finger make excuses etc etc ....... cause it only leads to pointless argument. whether u guys accept it or not piraters are potential buyers as shown from the person above he went legit. pirating will never be stopped despite all the nah saying and pointing of the finger, so whats the next step you look for a real solution to it (OMG I CAN'T BELIEVE I SAID THAT!!!!)

    I don't encourage bitching, making excuses, and pointing the finger they get us nowhere, as a community we need to come together and find a solution or at least a find the sweet spot where is balance can be tipped in the favor of game companies as it is in consoles nad the consumers can be respected as they should be.

    I as a gamer who has pirated and paid will from this point on look for a solution and before the weekend post them in a new topic
     
  14. tech9

    tech9 New Member

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    +1 for ur post
     
  15. Krazeh

    Krazeh Well-Known Member

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    Err, no it's not. To have commited theft you need to have dishonestly appropriated property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it. Downloading a copy of a game/movie/music/program etc can never be theft under current legislation because you are not depriving the original owner of the property, i.e. they still have the original to do with as they wish.

    Please note I'm not condoning downloading games/movies/music/programs etc but claiming that doing so is theft when it isn't leads to a pointless basis for discussion.
     
  16. cjmUK

    cjmUK Old git.

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    Well done, Cpt. Pedant. You are right in that it is not the criminal act of theft, but a civil case of copyright infringement, and probably a number of other things too.

    But this is not a legal forum so we can continue to call it theft - for that is what it effectively is - unless you intend to split further hairs?
     
  17. Krazeh

    Krazeh Well-Known Member

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    It makes no difference whether this is a legal forum or not, the fact is piracy isn't theft and continuing to insist it is serves no useful purpose. Unfortunately it's the developers/publishers insistence on treating piracy as such that has, imo, led to little headway in dealing with the causes of and impact of piracy. It's a real shame that fewer companies don't have the same attitude as Stardock ( see http://draginol.joeuser.com/article/303512/Piracy_PC_Gaming ) and instead just lump all their product problems on piracy.
     
  18. DXR_13KE

    DXR_13KE BananaModder

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    what amazes me beyond anything is... SOMEONE WILL LEAK THE F***ING GAME WAY BEFORE IT IS RELEASED!!!! and this will entice MORE piracy!

    what are they thinking? and about games PC being cheap... yeah right... when a pc game is 50€ and your salary is 615$, of which most go to the house and food and your are mostly left with negative money... and almost everyone here is in the same situation!! so yea, games are expensive depending on were you live!
     
  19. boiled_elephant

    boiled_elephant Whitelist Bit-Tech in your adblock!

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    That's a very good idea. People wouldn't struggle to crack it eventually, though - the reason BF2 and such resist piracy is you can't get online without a genuine copy. But if you add the account system to singleplayer games, there's no incentive against piracy...just a slightly tougher challenge for the crackers.

    Steam is a good idea, but I hate buying games over steam. The service is hugely unsatisfying; I frequently forget I own games that I've bought over steam, and I often suspect that in the strictest sense, I *don't* own them. It's a bit of a confusing way to play. And the software itself can blow me - the sheer number of updates they throw down is so huge that I have to update single-player games almost every time I log on. That's just absurd, but I digress.

    Re: piracy, I'm actually starting to sympathise with developers, God forbid. I still hate them, because they're richer and happier than I'll ever be, but even so I can see how unattractive the PC market must look to them right now.
     
  20. '99

    '99 New Member

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    Maybe piracy could be reduced by doing it, like it is / were done with titles like Joint Operations: Typhoon Rising , Battlefield 1942 and 2, World In Conflict?
    Publish a good demo, using a map that is in the game, and by using a online account system.
    If paying like 55$, the price for a game here in Denmark, just to find out that the game does'nt hold? Then I can understand gamers start to play using a copy, and then bying the game to go online, if they like it.
    Buttom line... get a good demo out 2 months before release, and start using a online accountsystem.
     
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