Discussion in 'Serious' started by Dwarfer, 8 Aug 2011.
Because we do have respect and regard for other people's lives? Because we want to be the better person? Because we don't want to stoop to their level?
If we want to claim that we are better people than they are then we need to act like it and that includes ensuring that everyone we deal, regardless of what you may feel about them, with is afforded basic human rights.
So how do you propose we deal with these mindless idiots?
The softly softly approach IS NOT WORKING!!!
Apologies for the capital letters it's just that I am trying to emphasize the current tactics aren't working!
Pretty sure this has already been mentioned, but just to mention it again...
We barely have enough police to contain the riots as they are. Even though more officers are being drafted in, I doubt it'll be enough to stop the riots and enforce a curfew at the same time.
The other problem is that the additional police are being sent to London. What about the other cities where rioting started? If more cities follow tonight, what are they going to do - the additional forces for London must have been diverted from somewhere...
Slightly off-topic, please forgive me:
Now define, preferrably in a new thread, the definition of "basic human rights" because in my mind it sure ain't the same as the EU legislation on human rights which binds hands and dictates response to such a degree that makes it difficult to deal with any matter these days
The good guy will always get walked over by the bad guy, since the good guy can never do what is needed.
And shooting them with rubber bullets or whatever is not sinking to their level, since they spontaneously broke the law and destroyed other peoples property, whereas we would be punishing them for it, which they knew was coming?
Which brings the point across which has already being pointed out by numerous posters on here and hundreds of people on the news. Bring in the ARMY!
We use reasonable force to contain and end the current situation and then we take a good long hard look at how we've allowed society to get to the state where a supposedly civilized country ends up with riots like we're seeing. This isn't a situation you resolve with the application of excessive brute force in the hope that'll keep people in line in the future.
In what way does the EU legislation bind hands and dictate responses in a way that makes it difficult to deal with any public situation these days? Could you provide some examples of where the legislation has done this? And I mean examples in which you can actually cite the specific part of the legislation that has caused an issue, not examples where the media have claimed it's because of "human rights legislation".
Also agree with this. Yes London appears to be the main focus of this right now but it's only getting the huge amounts of reinforcements because it's London. Notice in the news that the council already has lots of the roads repaired or undergoing repairs, how long would it take in various other areas of the country? A month? 3 months?
I can't decide if braodcasting that there will be all the extra police is a good or bad idea. It could either put a big stopper on the rioting because people will realise that they'll be outnumbered tonight or just make them go elsewhere and that elsewhere will have even less response because half of its police have been drafted to London. It's a tough one, personally i wouldn't have revealed that, it would have worked nicely for the idiots to go out only to be completely snared by police.
Already said that a few pages back - but it looks like the government isn't going to do that yet.
That said I give it time. If the riots keep expanding at the pace that they are, it won't be too long before the military are required - even if it's just for number.
Touch wood though, looks like it's been pretty quiet thus far today. Didn't the first outbreak yesterday start between two and three in the afternoon?
Didn't want to open a new thread about this, however. In regard to all of the Looted items that have been stolen. Being as some of it will find its way onto ebay and other auction sites. Does anyone know where we stand if we unwillingly bought stolen items?
I completely agree, however this is the root cause which needs to be tackled seperately. For example, anyone caught and convicted in the rioting/looting must take part in the cleanup operation. This would enable them to speak/see the damage it has done to people directly.
If I was caught stealing as a child, my parents would have taken me back so I could return the goods and apologise. This is something that I feel may possibly be missing from their upbringing. A sense of responsibility.
I do disagree with you on one point though. To me, there is no reason for breaking the law. Whilst I can empathise with someone as to why they may break the law, this does not excuse the action.
For example, if a poor man steals a loaf of bread to feed his family; action should be taken to rectify why he is poor but the theft should still be punished.
I feel that the last part of that statement is often forgotten in today's society.
I don't see how you personally could be liable, as you have no knowledge of the previous history of the item.
Me being unaffected by this, I reckon bringing in the Army is going to do more harm than good. The Army (as far as I know - which might not be far) has no power of arest, unlike the police force.
This means the Army can only be used as deterrent or muscle.
If option a) fails then b).
The army and civilians will pretty much immediately go very wrong.
There are two issues being discussed here, it seems.
One is the immediate question of "how to stop the looting, rioting and blatant disregard for societal standards?".
The other is the less immediate topic of stoking the fire by supressing the riots the wrong way.
I think the british government is principally making the right decisions:
More cops, maybe the fire brigade.
Tear gas, riot police and water cannons/fire hoses.
Give everyone a chance to cool off a bit.
It's less lethal than rubber bullets, less provocative than calling in the army to help.
Then make everyone caught int he wake clean up the mess, face the consequences. Prison isn't the answer for a lot of this.
It's quite the mess, makes me ashamed to call myself a Londoner, honestly.
Got stopped and searched last night, quite rightly for being around town, but I was eager to see what is going on and all you could hear was alarms, shops being broken into, and youths running around with bellaclavas on. What can the police do though, to arrest everyone would mean brimming each cell with flesh. This should have been prevented, rather than what we're left to do which is to resolve.
Still, much of the youths have claimed their actions have been a result of boredom. Boredom? I've never been bored and felt like doing a fraction of what they're doing.
It is disgusting, to put it lightly...
Indeed the army can't arrest people, but the powers can be given to them as a result of the Cobra meeting (which loosely stated that the police had another night to contain before the army stepped in).
From what I've seen on facebook, there is a serious Vigilante element grouping up, to join in and make mass 'civil arrests'. Could be quite dangerous if you ask me.
In terms of the army, if they step in it will damage the confidence in the police further than this loss of face at the moment, but quite honestly I believe they need to step in and deal with the confidence fallout at another time.
"These people are not humans because they act like animals, and thus should be treated as such".
Hmmm. What caused them to act like animals in the first place? Chicken, egg...
I suggested before that traditional forms of punishment and force will not work. Why? Because they don't see it as punishment. They see it as aggression, to which they have learned there can be only one response: counter it with greater aggression. Law of the jungle: beat or be beaten.
You see: they don't say: "Oh, they are punishing me for being a bad boy". They came from backgrounds where you would be beaten, shouted at or at best ignored regardless of whether you were a good or bad boy. They don't even know what that means, really. They do not connect the consequences to their actions because they were never taught to. Because there never were any clear consequences. You got beaten regardless, and the consequences of your actions depended not on whether the act was good or bad, but whether you could get away with it. Might makes right --until you are mightier.
The youths don't know why they do what they do --don't bother asking. They do it because they can, because they can take stuff and break stuff, and because they have not been raised with a societal or internal voice that says what they are doing is wrong. They are little boys left to do what they want: Lord of the Flies, right there.
The way to stop this is to make it not-fun. Looting and fighting is fun. Going up against the army is a dare. Walking around drenched in cold water is not. Seeing your mum (or a mum very much like her) in tears on TV pleading for you to come home is not.
I think we should set up work camps.
Convited persons of these riots should have to then work off their debt at a rate of minimum wage to repay for losses.
A few signs of extra police and everyone round our area is like "ZOMG WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!?!?!" When the police themselves have released a statement to us that nothing is going to happen...
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