Education Troll Physics

Due to this subject ruining a perfectly good Demote thread. I have started a new one.

Could anyone give me any good reason to why this would work?

 

Argh.

Lighter
Generator
Through

(now that I have that out of the way)

My guess is the friction in the system will slow it to a halt.

 

All infinite electricity plans have to violate the conservation of energy in some way. Energy can be converted but never destroyed. The initial energy you put in to start the chain moving would soon be gone due to friction on the generator and the chain as Fod pointed out. Generators are only ever 90% efficient at best as well further reducing the potential. To create a perfect seal for the water would be very difficult.

Apart from that I do love you thought process. Keep them ideas rolling

 

are the buoyancy of those bubbles enough to overcome the generator internal resistance?

generator doesn't work "magically", it's not made by Apple. there will be an EMF resistance.


also, those rotational generators need a relatively high speed of rotation, the speed of floating bubbles is definitely not going to be enough.

however, an oscillating cantilever might be able to generate some electricity. i've done a project at university to have a wireless sensor powered by low-speed wind. the challenge was low speed wind that doesn't turn turbines due to EMF resistance. solution by electromechanical engineers on the team was an oscillating cantilever moving a magnet up and down between two coils, it generated enough electricity for my low power mesh network sensor system.

 

The main problem would be the seal that the balls pass through at the bottom of the tank.

In order for that to seal properly the friction generated would be waaaay too much for the feeble updraft from the rising balls to overcome. By the time you add in friction in every pivot point (top & bottom pulleys plus the generator) plus the drag from the pulleys wheels themselves along with the inherent inefficiencies in any generating system this is a waste of time.

In addition, what happens once a ball has passed the seal, it would be necessary for the seal to close completely to keep the water in place until the next ball arrived. Yep, this is a typical "great idea" plucked out of the air by someone who has no clue about practical skills.

 

The downward force of water would indeed push the air containers to the top. However, creating a seal at the bottom of a large volume of water would induce more friction than the amount of energy needed. Remember the water will be pushing down on the seal keeping it closed. If you had 10 tonnes of water in the tank you would have 10 tonnes of pressure trying to escape the bottom keeping the seal shut. The more water you add the more pressure gets put on the seal. The upward pull of the gas inside the balloons just wouldn't be enough.

Also, with the use of Hydrogen or Helium or any other lighter than air gas. The upward pull found in the water would be equalled to the balloons on their way back down the chain outside of the water container.

 

Crudely drawn but for the sake of arguement lets say this is a way around the seal(the red sections)



For those that say it breaks the laws of conservation, is it not manipulating gravity, a force that causes kenetic energy.

*just a note, im sure this wouldnt work, I do understand that energy cant be created out of nowhere, but as a theorlogical question its kind of interesting and its one of the more convincing troll free energy examples.

Edit: yeh think warren has it

 

Implying it wouldn't work.

Spoiler

where have the damn spoiler tags gone oh god what is this i dont even

 

LAWD forget about the generator for a second, lets just worry about creating a perpetual motion device for a start...

To make things simpler, let's pretend that instead of balloons, we have a large tube, in a continuous cylinder, like a massive bike tube.
This tube has say 100 internal chambers dividers, so it's the same as having 100 balloons, but in a smooth package which is much easier to seal.... lets assume the tension provides all the required friction to drive a 10 watt generator wait no, lets just worry about perpetual motion..

With the weight of even a small pool of water... just imagine how much friction would be required to make even a poor seal Sorry noobs, the idea just died in the water The required friction of the seal is far too great

But lets continue to entertain the fantasy... lets pretend a bit-techer has invented a frictionless seal... great, now our massive perpetual motion machine can successfully drive a 10 watt generator.... We just need a huge chambered tube, a small tanker truck of helium, and a pool with an imaginary seal

Gee, for a small fraction of the price and size, we could buy a top quality solar panel, or a nice wind generator, which can generate 1kw for most of the day
Sure the panel might need maintenance every 10 years, and more often for the wind generator, but they are actually feasible free energy alternatives...
By free we are ignoring the actual cost of these solutions of course

edit: +1 Warren

I tried to tell them here:

 

If we could invent a frictionless seal and ignore the surface tension of the water, the buoyancy of the balloons in the water isn't going to be great enough to support the rest of the balloons being pulled back down by gravity, even if you were to only use a couple. Before anyone suggests putting it on its side the buoyancy from the water only acts in the opposite direction to gravity.

 

Yes it would.

Imagine, putting a balloon on the ceiling and pulling it down. Easy huh?

Now, try submersing same balloon in a bucket of water. Not as easy.

This difference given a frictionless seal would indeed be enough to pull the other balloons back around to the bottom.

The seal is the problem in the whole thing. The pressure of the water on the seal will prevent anything passing though.

 

The seal is just the problem for perpetual motion.... what the picture in the op is suggesting, is a machine which is not only capable of perpetual motion, but can also drive a generator to produce a household's energy requirements

Seriously bit-tech, tell me you're trolling us.... tell us that the average IQ of the forum isn't far below 100

 

Even with a magical frictionless seal, buoyancy is essentially caused by the heavier water being pulled by gravity into the space that is occupied by the balloon. It would be, as WarrenJ says, like pushing a balloon into a bucket of water, just from underneath. The water will push right back. This means that it would take as much force for balloons to enter the water at the bottom, as the lift generated by the balloons already in the water and rising up.

Then, of course, there is all the friction mentioned before and the EM feedback of the generator.

 

That's solved with my giant bike tube equipped with 100 chambers and each filled with helium

I solved that, you solve the frictionless seal, and I'll provide a 10 watt generator to charge my iphone

 

After my initial support for the idea I finally realise why it can't work. Air rising to the surface of water is down to a pressure difference between the water pressure and the internal pressure of the balloon. As Nexxo says, it'll take the same amount of energy to plant the balloon into the bottom of the tank as it would generate on the way up. That's before the energy loss caused by the seal and the generator and since there's no energy being created in the first place, you've just made an overcomplicated locking system.

Sadly, it won't work.

Ah, but it creates negative energy you say? Shut up and get your feet out of your pockets.

 

aye can't sleep.. sent the troll physics to a friend and he says it violates the 2nd law of thermodynamics

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_law_of_thermodynamics

but what's interesting is the patent laws on perpetual motion.. since it defies physics, they want to see a working model.. and if you can fool the patent examiner, you can have an al gore type milking machine until people realize it's black cherry

 

Einstein was a Patent clerk. Try fooling him. Nope, science is self-auditing. Anything that is faked is exposed pretty quickly as such.

FYI, I once heard the three laws of thermodynamics described as:

You can't win
You can't break even
You can't get out of the game

Which is not only an effective description for laypeople, but also a nice philosophical observation about life.

 

No, Nexxo was correct. Even with a frictionless seal, the problem lies with the pressure difference acting on the balloon entering the bottom of the tank. Your tube idea is not analogous to a string of balloons. I'll upload a photo of the proof after lunch.

 

The tube wouldn't work since it would just be sitting there with nothing for the water to act upon. It needs to be individual sealed units. Put a straw in a glass of water and it'll just sit there, seal the bottom of it and it will be lifted by buoyancy.