Discussion in 'Serious' started by TekMonkey, 5 Jun 2004.
As cruel as it sounds, forgive me for not being saddened by this.
Having witnessed Alzheimers, it's a terrible, terrible disease RIP
I cried, and I feel sad. Reagan was a unique and great President
It rocked me emotionally when I saw the news
shame. not a bad pres at all.
i'm gonna see if i can find any of his old movies on dvd later
Hmm...well apart from his support for some incredibly dodgy reigimes in central america, and his friendship with the Iron Lady...
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:
"In the Iran-Contra Affair, United States President Ronald Reagan's administration secretly sold arms to Iran, which was engaged in a bloody war with its neighbor Iraq from 1980 to 1988 (see Iran-Iraq War), and diverted the proceeds to the Contra rebels fighting to overthrow the leftist democratically-elected Sandinista government of Nicaragua. Those sales thus had a dual goal: appeasing Iran, which held American hostages and supported bombings in Western European countries, and funding an anti-Communist guerilla war.
Both actions were contrary to acts of Congress which prohibited the sale of weapons to Iran, as well as in violation of UN sanctions."
Just doing a search for "iran-contra" should throw up some interesting reading...
Interestingly enough, Reagan is the only president *known* to have worn a nazi uniform
he set the Cold War back 10 years
a good polititian is a dead polititian. imho
Well they've changed it now, its slightly more favourable towards him.
And I know this isn't the time or the place for discussing cold war Central American politics! But the Sandinistas weren't exactly peaceful themselves, yes they were elected but only after they overthrew and then assasinated Samoza (who probably deserved it though being your typical despot) and since they were being armed and financed by the USSR and Cuba its not hard to see why they funded an anti-communist movement during the cold war. Even if the illegal way some of his government did it (maybe with his knowledge) is harder to justify.
Unless I misunderstand you, since the Cold War 'officially' ended in 91 its hard to see how he put it back 10 years when he was elected in 81?
Don't get me wrong I don't really have an opinion on Reagan either way, I hope he didn't suffer but I'm not in mourning or anything over his death.
There's talk about having Reagan replace Hamilton on the $10 bill.
I have to say he is probably the best president that we have had in my lifetime. Granted, look at who there is to compare him to in my lifetime: Nixon (for a year), Ford, Carter, Reagan, Big Bush, Clinton, Little Bush.
I heard an anecdote once that there was a problem with the air conditioning in the Oval Office and one of the aids suggested that Reagan take off his coat and tie to get cooler and he refused because he felt it would be disrespectful the position of Presidency to not look his best while in that office. He certainly had character...something we hadn't had in that office for a while.
As we're roughly the same age, I tend to agree. Reagan had a TON of character, was a fantastic orator and was a president that I could respect. Yes, he had his faults like everyone does, but all-in-all, I think that he deserves all the accolades and honor that he has received. We need more presidents with his type of integrity in office.
Here is a flame thread if I ever saw one.
It doesn't matter which side of the fence I stand on, I still honor him. His death was tragic and cut short by a horrific disease. The only good part of a national figure dying of a disease like that is that more funding and resources seem to become available at least for the short term.
No American president will EVER be liked by everyone. I bet you couldn’t throw a stone and not hit someone who didn’t like Kennedy (either one), but I bet they still mourned his death.
The man who was elected to the highest office in this country has died of a terrible disease; I say stop the bashing and let the mourners mourn.
He was 93! That's a damn good innings.
Although not the greatest of people, he was still better than the ****ing antichrist in the white house right now.
Now, I'm not trying to be difficult, but having read about the Iran-Contra affair, and some of his other dealings, I'm not sure that that kind of "integrity" is the kind you want in charge of your country!
It's all good - I like a good debate. Hate arguments, but love to debate..
Yes, okay, I agree with you in theory, but not completely. Reagan himself admitted to the American people on tv what happened and eventhough he denys knowledge of the diversion of money from the sale of weapons to Iran to aid the Contra rebels in Nicaragua, he accepted full responsability for not only actions he was aware of, but for the actions of his administration that he was unaware of - and did so publicly. As he said durring his speech:
First, let me say, I take full responsibility for my own actions and for those of my administration. As angry as I may be about activities undertaken without my knowledge, I am still accountable for those activities. As disappointed as I may be in some who served me, I'm still the one who must answer to the American people for this behavior. And as personally distasteful as I find secret bank accounts and diverted funds - well, as the Navy would say, this happened on my watch. (full speech is here)
I admire someone who takes that kind of responsability. I may not like the conditions nor what may have happened, but I admire their character. Bush Sr didn't even appologize for raising taxes which "no new taxes" was his camapign sloagan and Clinton couldn't even admit that he had a toss with an intern. I'm not getting into Bush Jr stuff, it'll just start a flame war..
For those not familiar with him or those who are too young to remember, I suggest reading some of his speeches.
Thing is, an apology is only worth it if you actually mean it!
I don't for a minute believe that Reagan was "sorry" about that mess. If he was sorry about anything, its that it got made public
I'm sure he was a great orator, but then apparently so was Hitler
And, sure, he might not have been as bad as Bush Sr (or even Bush jr) but the lesser of two evils is still an evil.
Anyway, the man is dead now. I'm prepared to let him rest in peace- but that doesn't mean I'm going to apply the blinkers that a lot of journalists seem to have been wearing recently
I was going to bring up that point. It makes you think - was he just lying or did he really not know what was going on. How many other things did he not know were going on at the time? Was he doing anything or just surrounding him with the best and brightest and let them do things(like Ike)?
Despite this i respect the man for ending the Cold War, even if I don't agree with the way he ended it, he still prevented nuclear winter. I must say, I love how he promoted stem cell research as a way to find a cure to this awful disease, and Bush cuts it.
Again, for the most part I agree with you - an appology is only worth anything if you mean it and he was probably most sorry that it got public. My point is that he openly took responsability - Not too many politicians would make that leap, but he did.
Yes, the lesser of 2 evils is still an evil, but anyone can find serious fault with anyone else or anything else, so that could be applied to humanity as a whole. I still believe that overall and taking in all arguments both good and bad, he was one of the better presidents we've had.
What's wrong with the way he ended it? With "Reaganomics" he essentially threw the USSR into bankruptcy. I'd take that over nuclear war anyday.
In so far as surrounding himself with the best and brightest, for the most part, that is 100% true. That is the role of a manager though, to surround themselves with the best and brightest employees to get the job done while you act as a "facilitator".
Didn't a fair few of his "best and brightest" get convicted of felony?
Interestingly enough, it seems that Bush Sr. gave pardons to a lot of them, and I remember reading the other day that Bush jr. has actually employed some of them as aides in Iraq.
Although I can accept he did alot of good with his time in office, I just see too many negative points.
- Of course the whole selling weapons to Iran thing. On the truth of his denial of the deals I think he said "I told American people I did not trade arms for hostages. My heart and my best intentions still tell me that's true, but the facts and the evidence tell me it is not."
- However I do still agree this is a grey area, but I curious to know what the hell 70,000 documents have been withheld concerning Reagan's time in office by George W Bush.
- His hard "anti-communist" line evident more before he was even governor of California, I don't agree with communism at all for the most part, but it just seems like a basic freedom of speech or even freedom of thought issue to me.
- He is frequently quoted as giving completely untrue facts in interviews and meetings, although I genuinely believe this is due to a lack of knowledge rather than spitefulness.
- Fundamentalism, he frequently talked of a religious style "Armageddon", which he then used to argue how "Jesus" and "The Lord" were telling the American people to overthrow Russia.
- How he was greatly influenced by his wife, who was into mystics and astrology.
- The effects of Reaganomics on those below and near the poverty line of America, although it did contribute in some part to "diffusing" the Cold War I accept.
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