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U.S. to ban torture.

Discussion in 'Serious' started by roll1, 5 Nov 2005.

  1. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    Hmmm... what would Jesus do? :D (I say this as a joke, but the idea is valid...)

    Yeah, but you can hardly shoot a guy because you believe he might have something to do with breaking into your house. You have to sort of catch him red-handed before you are allowed to pop him. Which is the basis of the whole argument in this thread. Apart from that I agree with your statements.
     
  2. Uncle Psychosis

    Uncle Psychosis Classically Trained

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    No, let's face it, if you were being accurate that sentence would say: "elected from the general populous---well, the rich, wealthy, and connected end of the general populous...". Joe 6pack from Nebraska has no chance of getting elected. A Bush or a Kennedy? *Now* you're talking...

    Oh, believe me, I'm no fan of the British Government. They're only *marginally* better than your lot (and only because I think our electoral system is a lot fairer than yours, but thats another thread...)

    Sam
     
  3. jamadaia

    jamadaia What's a Dremel?

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    Agree with a lot of what you have said, and also you raised some points and angles which I didnt comtemplate or see in that way :)

    However two main things I still dont agree with. Firstly teh fact that its a kind of poetic justice for Israel to grab the land back isnt right. We live in a era very different from the time that initially happened. Hence surely our actions should now be different. If that didnt happen, we would have the rest of the world attacking the western world (particularly Great Britain), or even Christain World. As the list of there mis-actions of the past (not 'modern world') is huge.

    The other one is that you doubt the terrorists / fundemntalists would be any different than today. Disagree with this as much if not more so thatn above.
    First of all the inter-changable usage of fundementalist and terrorist is a dangerous and incorrect one.
    A terrorist is always a fundementalist, but that does not imply the converse (and indeed that is correct).
    One of the biggest reasons why teh western world and the islamic world clash is that the western world doesnt understand the driving forces behind a muslim (im not talking about 'bad' actions, but in the general sense).
    The thing is the very roots of a muslim, and hence objectives and what he/she considers acceptable etc etc, are viastly different from a non-muslim. By this alone, they diverge, and then muslims are seen as odd / alien / wierd / socialy rejected etc. The more the diversion, the more so.
    Its coure not fair to generalize completely, as a lot of non-muslims are more forgiving and see this, but to be honest the whole dirty politics / media twist and shove all this constant negative information all the time which just makes non-muslims head more down the divergence road i.e. further away from understandin the real / true issues and driving factors.
    In case any reading this is wandering "how the heck does this guy think so deep on this and think he knows so much". Well im sure the mart of you ;) know by now I am muslim.
    I can honestly say to you myself and every single (im not kidding, seriously 100%) of muslims find the wars, occupation etc the factors which are unacceptable and sole aspects which they cannot live with. I can hand on heart say that if they werent there *and* there were suicide bombers or terrorists from a muslim descent. We would not only hate these people, we would fully back any punishment found on them.
    But the reality is they were born from the circumstances, and so if the ciscumstances didnt exist, neither would they.

    Anyway I think iv probably said enough for one post lol, and probably boring you by now :)
    Hope no one thinks ill of me that I am muslim, and I dont hold any personal malice towards people who are Jews (I have friends / colleaugues who are).
    I do obviously have big issues with zionists. Who imho have hijacked and perversed what was a beautifull faith of Judaism.
    The ironic thing of al this is that the problems arising for the muslims is actually forcing them to look back at there faith and become more practicing muslims. So if anyone, zionist or otherwise, believes you are undermining or re-shaping the muslim world. They couldnt be father from the truth.

    BTW I am a practcicing muslim, to a decent degree. I know a reasonable amount about the faith, but only a drop in the ocean as it is high complex and wide scoped.
    If anyone is curious about muslims or islam or our perspectives, please do feel free to ask away. At worst I will say I honestly dont have knowedge / understanding in that area. But please, no arguments or fighting etc. Just nice disucssions to enlight and educate one another (liek the world should be). And im no islamic scholar, so dont be suprised if i say i dont know lol.
     
  4. Da Dego

    Da Dego Brett Thomas

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    I appreciate that. :) That's what this section of the forum is here for...polite disagreement, enlightenment, and discussion on all sides.
    Of course we do...I guess I should be more careful of my phrasing. I of course do not think it right to go kick out ANY populous. I know that if I were kicked, I'd certainly be fairly bitter. But just as you say, we're in a new world...we should be thinking in new ways. The American Indians went through all sorts of eviction (from ground they considered VERY sacred), yet they do not now start planting bombs under cars near their reservations because they were uprooted a while back...

    Surely there were better ways to reach an accord than this...why so much bloodshed? What makes one so worthy of a spot of dirt that they can sacrifice another for it? Dirt and land are not ideals, they are not values...but their ownership has been twisted into one. The entire definition of Islam is 'peace', yet there is a segment of your faith that believe Jihad is a way of life. Violence is an endless cycle, and those who pervert your religion now to justify their actions are no better than those who perverted mine back in the crusades.
    Agree and consider it amended (though I'm not gonna go back and edit every post. It is an issue of symantics on my part, but an important one. But surely you must admit fundamentalism in any regard is asking for trouble.
    I agree whole-heartedly. But how much is the Muslim world attempting to understand the westerners? One must keep in mind that the street here does not seem to be two ways. Across the world, there are members of your faith who make it very difficult to integrate. As you say, it's unfair to give a blanket generalization, but surely you must agree that there are just as many stereotypes of westerners and their ways as there are of muslims. And the Muslim media does not do much to disabuse this notion, either.
    I would think in the interests of peace and love for life in general, you would be hating them anyways...even moreso. Without a cause, you could at least write them off as completely loony, like we do the Heaven's Gate people and other fanatic cults. It's the quiet sympathy that strikes a nerve...They do not represent your religion, yet they claim it as their ratioinale. They do not care about your ways or what a hard time they're causing Muslims around the world. They care only about a spot of land, and who's feet are on it. I would think all that is decent in your faith would cause its members to outspokenly renounce and rebuke such actions as taking the lives of women and children with absolute intent. Like I said, they don't represent you, after all. And if they do, then there really IS a problem.
    If anyone DOES have an issue with it, they can take it up in this thread...always fun to ban a few biggots. :D (A note: Yes, I am very serious...any flaming on this will be handled IMMEDIATELY if not sooner. But y'all already knew that, didn't ya, cause we're all smart cookies here and we don't have those types of people).
    Same problem you should have with the terrorists. Believe me, I look on the ones who refused to leave the West Bank no more favorably than the members of Hamas.
    In some ways, that's a good thing. But I'm more worried that it's driving more and more people to pervert the faith, not practice it. Would you agree?
     

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