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UK gov views on Civil Liberty

Discussion in 'Serious' started by LAGMonkey, 17 Oct 2008.

  1. LAGMonkey

    LAGMonkey Group 7 error

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    According to Geoff Hoon...
    This remarkable statement came shortly after his reply to a question posed by Liberal Democrat MP and fellow panellist Julia Goldsworthy how far the government is willing to go undermine civil liberties to monitor extremists.

    his reply?

    For those of you in the UK and have access to the BBC's iPlayer the fun starts at 48:20 over HERE. Those of you outside the country and dont have access to a UK VPN you can find the offending section of Question Time on Youtube

    This was originally spotted on The Register which can be found over HERE

    I cant tell you how angry watching Hoons Comments have made me. Im intending to voice my opinion soon in public in london when im required to return to the UK for a visa (im an Expat and rarely visit the UK these days).
     
  2. cyrilthefish

    cyrilthefish New Member

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    Gah, theres not words to show how angry this makes :wallbash:

    Geoff Hoon has just shown he's far more dangerous to the British public than any terrorist :duh:
     
  3. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    Geoff Hoon is an idiot. A real Grade-A moron. He's dumber than a sack full of squirrels. He epitomises everything that is wrong with the current government.
     
  4. Ryu_ookami

    Ryu_ookami I write therefore I suffer.

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    If the present government truly believes what that idiot was saying, then they are a bigger threat to the British public than ANY terrorist organisation has ever been.

    The moment that you start saying that you're willing to curb civil liabilities to the extent that he was implying, then the terrorists have already won.

    Before anyone starts saying that he didn't say how far a very long way is, let's see the state of the UK at present, shall we?

    #1 We are the most CCTV monitored country on the planet

    #2 The government is considering/developing a database to hold all emails sent, all mobile phones used and website pages visited.

    #3 The police and security services have the right to hold anyone that they consider a terrorist - without charge, or allowing them communications...for weeks.

    At present, I can quite honestly say that the direction that this country's government is taking is terrifying when you sit down and think about it. It's almost as if someone has taken George Orwell's "1984" and decided that it made an excellent government manifesto and is working towards it as their target.
     
    Last edited: 17 Oct 2008
  5. Red 5

    Red 5 New Member

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    And that's why I don't watch question time any more. I get too angry and don't like being lied to. It's also why I don't vote 'New' Labour (Old Conservatives) any more, too.
     
  6. VipersGratitude

    VipersGratitude Well-Known Member

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    1. I'm a terrorist.
    2. I find out about this Bill and go "oh crap!"
    3. I think "there has to be some way around this..."
    4. I discover the linux dist. Back Track
    5. I download it and learn how to hack another persons wireless connection in a few hours.
    6. Now that I know how to do it subsequent connections take about 15 mins to crack.
    7. I teach all my terrorist friends.
    8. Now we can communicate however we please.
    9. Security forces jobs are made harder because they've made us learn, through neccessity, how to implicate innocent people.
    10. We do all our terrorist stuff anonymously now, while impeding the security forces ability to catch us because the bureaucracy dictates that they spend their limited resources investigating the innocent people whose connections we hijacked.
    11. Praise the stupidity of infidel politicians! Praise Allah!
    12. Omar Shariff!
     
  7. yodasarmpit

    yodasarmpit No longer the other Brett.

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    Don't agree with the government, then the terrorists are going to kill you.

    It's getting a bit silly isn't it.
     
    Last edited: 18 Oct 2008
  8. Spaceraver

    Spaceraver Ultralurker

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    Ryu_ookami.
    The State in Denmark has allready passed that law about a central database and is monitoring us.
    And the police has the means to seize and hold personas in question without charge or comms.
    So for what they propose in Britain we have it allready minus the CCTV all over the place. For now it's only Airports and train stations.

    Makes me remember V for Vendetta. Scary thought indeed.

    I will not be opressed by our goverment.
     
  9. cyrilthefish

    cyrilthefish New Member

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    Seems as good as any thread to bring this up:

    Question i've always wondered: As long as i can remember, the UK as always been a prime terrorism target (IRA and so on) with frequent terror attacks in London. The UK always reacted in the best possible way: essentially ignoring it and carrying on as normal whenever possible, much as we've done during the world wars.

    Which is fine, i'm proud of that.

    but WTF has happened this decade? 911 and a few other attacks and the *entire* western world (including the UK) loses it's head and goes into flatout panic over a lesser threat than the UK has been under for a long time...

    I can understand other countries that haven't had much terrorism panicing, but the UK has NO EXCUSE

    Is it really just a conspiracy by the governments to use terrorism as an excuse to run the world into an Orwellian nightmare?
    I hate conspiracy theories as they're generally so insane, but this time the evidence seems to support it and i can think of no other reason for the UK government, after so many years of terrorism, suddenly completely losing the plot this way...

    Am i just reading too much into things? :confused:
     
  10. modgodtanvir

    modgodtanvir Prepare - for Mortal Bumbat!

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    You aren't reading into it too much, and Orwellian nightmare is right...

    :sigh: A nation where your every movement, your genetic data and every phone call is monitored by the government... though I find it hard to pinpoint why exactly this is a bad idea, I must say it gives me the 'heeby jeebies' as it were...

    This whole terrorism thing is fear mongering. They haven't had a terrorist attack to report for years, so they just repeat the ones which happened before... makes me want to move somewhere else... Sealand perhaps :p
     
  11. LAGMonkey

    LAGMonkey Group 7 error

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    The next annoying thing is when people justify the anti-terror measures with the line...

    MAN that line boils my piss.
    V for Vendetta was right on the money in my opinion, bang on the mark. As already said by Ryu_ookami the government have read 1984 and used it as a blue print!
    Ive honestly always been a bit paranoid when it comes to personal data (before it was really needed) but since last year my measures dont look parinoid enough!
     
  12. Veles

    Veles DUR HUR

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    Was just about to say that
     
  13. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    The George Bush Administration happened. The Neo-Conservative agenda has always been: "What is good for America is good for the world, and good for the world is American rule". They were already planning a hostile take-over of the Middle East so 9/11 came as a Godsend (although it was the wrong perpetrator --but they quickly did a spin on that). Some conspiracy theorists feel that it was a bit too convenient, and that the perpetrators were deliberately allowed to slip through the intelligence net to wreak their havoc. I think the US government was just too busy planning for Iraq to pay attention and got caught with their pants down. In any case it was useful fuel for their policies.

    New Labour, meanwhile, had its own delusions of grandeur. Having played an ineffectual second fiddle to arguably the most ruthlessly powerful instance of Conservative rule for decades, they finally got into office and they wanted to outdo Thatcher. The US has always seen the UK as a useful tool so President Bush just turned on his folksy charm on Tony and this apparent "old boys together" collegiality went straight to Tony's little head, as if he was actually important now. So like the geeky little kid finding importance in the reflected glory of the big school bully, he would back Bush up all the way like a good little suck-up (second fiddle yet again; you can't escape the ironic fate of who you are). Tony's colleagues are basically all the same: inadequate public school boys and girls with low self-esteem and a desire for power and importance who, having suddenly found it, have gone a bit crazy and turned into caricatures of their former selves. Just think of Prescott, Blunkett, Jacqui Smith and particularly Alistair Campbell. And Geoff Hoon.

    That's what happened. At least the Conservatives come from a long ancestral culture used to power and dominance-- they abused power but they could handle it as skilfully as a hunting rifle or thoroughbred horse. It is what they grew up with. New Labour has just gone crazy with it and is out of control.
     
  14. cjmUK

    cjmUK Old git.

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    Anyone see The Last Enemy?

    A decent story, except for the fact that half of the dystopian nightmare is already true, and we are on course for the other half too.
    Fears that the UK would "sleep-walk into a surveillance society" have become a reality, the government's information commissioner has said.

    Holy sh*t! Even the G-man says so.

    Leading Surveillance Socities.

    So we are on a par with Russia & China... Nice.

    I wouldn't mind so much, but this government (as well as just about every previous government) has consistently proven it's inability to keep it's collected data accurate and secure. Moreover, all this relies on technology - when was the last time a government ran a successful technology project? The CSA computer system? The NPfIT?

    I just hope that when the Tories get in, that they follow through with their current stated position. But I fear that the country will be hopelessly screwed by then that they will have their hands full elsewhere. I think that unpicking the various surveillance and monitoring systems will be a lower priority when faced with a crippled economy.
     
  15. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    You sound surprised?

    The essential difference is not the surveillance, but what is done with it. We're not quite up to Totalitarian State Standards (ISO 9000)... yet. But we're getting there.

    The thing is, when you have access to that sort of data and technology, you're going to use it. It's inevitable. First for (what you convince yourself) are very good reasons; then for reasonable reasons, and eventually, because you can.

    And in the end, these systems are run at ground level by Homers who lose laptops, memory sticks and CDs; who take bribes to sell data to interested parties. When the government faces massive debt due to a credit crunch, and they know that many companies will pay good money for the demographic data that it routinely collects... well, just remove the personal details and no harm done, right? Except that this costs money and effort, so perhaps they just send off the CDs on the promise that nobody will look at the names, honest.

    They'll keep it; as I said: too tempting to not use it. Power corrupts.
     
    Last edited: 21 Oct 2008
  16. LeMaltor

    LeMaltor >^_^

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    We used anti terror laws on Iceland, I don't think I can put into words how wrong that is, so just imagine me jumping up and down scream "NO, NO, NO". But no doubt labour will lose the next election though and the conservatives will get in and cock the country up even more, one must remember to emegrate in the next few years. :(
     
  17. TheCherub

    TheCherub Member

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    From what I read, the legislation covers Terrrorism and Securities Act, and the seizures came under the Security section rather than Terrorism section. However, I am not knowledgeable to say whether this actually qualifies as justification.
     
  18. LeMaltor

    LeMaltor >^_^

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    I read http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7662027.stm which only mentions anti-terror laws unless my skim reading skills have epically failed me o_o
     
  19. steveo_mcg

    steveo_mcg New Member

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    Its definitely the Terrorism and Securities act but the whole things is such a crock of.. that its easy to pervert to what ever you feel like using it for.
     
  20. TheCherub

    TheCherub Member

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    Another reason why I dislike the ID card scheme and this communication logging exercise.
     

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