Discussion in 'Serious' started by Cthippo, 20 Jan 2007.
Mostly I'm wondering what qustions were in the poll. Results seem ambigious.
I was asked in class two days ago "How many of you know what the Holocaust was?"
Only about 80% said they did... there really is quite a bit of ignorance, no matter the poll's ambiguity.. then again this was in America
Realistically, how many young 'adults' know very much about anything? This is a perfect example of how western education is failing miserably, especially when contrasted with the model systems of the more developed Asian countries... Though they do have that pesky problem of elevated teen suicide....
While I'm all for learning the past mistakes of man and improving himself I can't just feeling the Jews are still rather childish. Really, it happened a long time ago and they can't still call up the Holocaust sympathy card, it's as if they're stuck 50 God damn years ago.
Plus, a lot of young people know nothing, it's not as if they are advanced mathematicians but choose to block out the Holocaust because they have Jews.
Don't blame the education system. Quiz programmes like Weakest Link make it obvious that the younger contestants struggle on general knowledge but are hot stuff on pop music.
It's a lack of a 'rounded' education - what you're taught at school plus what you pick up yourself by reading and listening, by living and mixing with other people. You need to be more nosey - if you don't know why things are as they appear to be, dig out the background, get both sides of the story, think about the differences.
It's so easy these days with the internet, but so many are prepared to be spoon-fed a black or white opinion (whichever fits most easily into their world-view) without questioning the data it's supposed to be based on. Faith takes over from fact, re-assurance from reality.
This doesn't surprise me. I imagine the people who aren't aware of the holocaust are the same sorts of people who couldn't name anyone in the UK government beyond Blair. Some people choose to remain ignorant of practically everything they can.
I gotta agree with them though that Holocaust denial shouldn't be a criminal(or civil) offence. That's said almost as if it's a bad thing in the article that most people don't want it to be an offence.
But yeah, plenty of stupid people. It's not stupid people that cause things like the holocaust though. That's the important fact. Those who would ever be in a position to repeat that sort of thing will know full well what the holocaust was and what genocide is.
I don't think they are (well, most of them are not). I think they are trying to make an important point here. After all, fascism and genocides still occur today and people fail to recognise what is going on because they cannot put it into historical context. Think of the War on Terror...
Put it another way: how often have we had discussions on this forum about the War on Terror, current West vs. (Middle) East policies and the Israel-Palestine issues, and have been throroughly annoyed by people who have felt the need to make sweeping statements without showing one inkling of knowledge about the background issues or historical context?
Similarly, how can people think in an informed manner about, say, the BNP's political campaign without knowing about the history of fascism? How can people understand what drives Israel in the Middle East? And how can we understand what goes on for Black Americans now, if we don't know the history of slavery? How can we understand what goes on for immigrants from the former colonies, if we don't know about our colonial past?
The BNP and their sympathisers, for instance, argue from a position of ignorance (if not outright denial) of these issues. They don't know, or care, about the holocaust, colonialism, or slavery. They wonder why we have all these Caribbeans and Asians here in the UK, and feel that they should just bugger off back home, and do not understand that they have a historical entitlement to be here, and have actually made our culture richer for it.
Similarly, if we simply forget about the Holocaust, we just won't recognise fascism and genocide when it rears its ugly head again. And it is. All over the place. Even in our own countries:
Those who forget the past, are forced to relive it...
Or as I've said a few times, true intelligence is learning from other people's mistakes, not by making the same ones yourself...history, old and new, provides plenty of examples.
"These days anti-Jewish feeling is periodically stirred by the media." We have the same problem in the West. Anti-anybody.
I find it disturbing that there is a hint of anti-Semitism directed towards those that are unaware of the holocaust, their lack of knowledge may indicative of a failing education system or just a lack of interest in history in general.
I am not disturbed by the lack of awareness of the holocaust, I do however find it a little surprising, especially when you consider the vast array of information sources now available to teenagers. Of course that in itself may be part of the problem, information overload.
The holocaust exemplified the worst that humanity is capable of, the systematic killing of 6 million people (Jews, gypsies, the disabled, communists, homosexuals and non Jewish Poles). Another 55 million people died at this time, this was most probably the worst episode in the history of humanity, let us not forget that.
It was closer to 11M from the digging I've done Yoda. Around 5-6M jews, the rest of them minorities that the Nazi's didn't like. The roma for instance, who lost the vast majority of their entire ethnic group during the holocaust. Part of the reason that it annoys me that it only ever seems to be the jews that are focussed on. Without doubt they as a group suffered the most, but there are millions of people going basicly unrecognised it seems.
Then again, most people havn't heard of the armenian genocide, so perhaps the jews just did a very good job of publicising their own plight(not saying that in a negative or positive way, just stating).
Naah, it is just that the persecutor of the Jews was everybody's baddy. So their plight was highlighted as just another proof of what a bunch of *******s the Nazis were. Nobody cared much about the Jews being exterminated before Hitler became a problem to the rest of Western Europe.
Similarly, as long as Turkey kept its genocide of the Armenians in-house, nobody else cared. Same with the Kurds.
The thing is that they are saying that the Nazi Holocaust is the worst thing in living memory. But there are genocides happening now, why don't they do anything to alert people more to those?
If you polled people on Rwandan genocide how many would say they don't believe it happened?
I would actually like to know the answer to that last question.
I doubt that many people outside of Rwanda would. But plenty of Rwandans would no doubt play it down. Oddly enough, people who often hate an ethic group and have a history of persecuting them seem to play down any genocidal acts against them.
Neo-Nazi's for instance, hate jews as much as they hate pretty much anyone, and yet they play down the holocaust. I guess it allows them to believe their cause is good.
And I'm sorry to say that the reason more isn't being done about current genocides is because the people being killed in Sudan and various other places are black. Plain and simple.
Not so much because they're black but because they don't have anything we care about. Notice how rare Darfur and Somalia are in the news, but every time a bomb goes off in Nigeria it's on the news. Why? They're bth black countries, but Nigeria has oil.
Maybe if the president of Ethiopia threatened W's daddy somthing would finally get done about Darfur.
Cognitive dissonance reduction. The persecutor oftern perceives themselves to be the victim. The Nazis felt that the Jews were to blame for many of Germany's problems, the Hutu blamed the Tutsis, the Serbs felt hard done by the Slovenes and Croats, the BNP will say that immigrants are taking our jobs and our women... same old, same old. It doesn't fit the underdog image to be the perpetrator of genocide --that makes them the baddy and invalidates the righteous indignation on which they feed.
It certainly helps, because it is easier not to empathise with people who are so visibly Not Like Us. But remember that we pretty much left the Croats to perish in former Yugoslavia. And as I said before, nobody gave a damn about the Jews in WWII. Not really.
It's sad that people only give a damn if it threatens them in some way, Hell this happens to the best of us (I don't see any of us leaping to other countries and helping.
I'm also against locking peopel up for not believing something, that doesn't make you any better than Nazis or any other group (BNP).
Kind of seems that way, doesn't it? It seems rather difficult to criticise Turkey for prosecuting a man for saying the genocide of the Armenians did happen, when we prosecute people for saying that the holocaust didn't happen. Kind of contradicts the whole freedom of speech thing, it seems.
People are stupid, and sometimes it seems you just have to intervene in what they say and do. We have censorship; we challenge people who proselitise intolerance of and hatred towards others. To deny that persecution of an ethnic group has happened has an agenda beyond mere scepticism; it denounces the victim as a fraud or liar, trivialises the wrong that was done them and denies them their rights. It is no different from saying that a rape victim is overexaggerating their experience.
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