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News Valve encouraging gamers to try Linux

Discussion in 'Article Discussion' started by Gareth Halfacree, 22 Jan 2013.

  1. PCBuilderSven

    PCBuilderSven New Member

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    Having done a bit of searching, it turns out a community effort is already underway with ReactX (from ReactOS), which, apparently, is entirely legal and structured to avoid lawsuits. However, progress is apparently limited by a lack of developers. While not likely at all, Valve could support the project, perhaps not openly to avoid being attacked by Microsoft.

    Really? I've had no problem with Linksys wireless cards (WRT-600N I believe) on openSuse 64bit and Ubuntu (I think 64 bit, may have been 32 though). I didn't need any drivers at all.
     
  2. Sloth

    Sloth #yolo #swag

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    I reject your reality and substitute my own! :D

    One other person out of the many different Linux themed threads. It's still a very small number of people who seem to note cost as a distinct advantage. I think people just forget how much an OS can cost since it's something an average person only buys once every few years. Valve are surely well aware of the costs looking at a potential for hundreds of thousands of licenses.
     
  3. velo

    velo New Member

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    I've no interest in dual-booting any time soon - tried it for a long, long time and no longer see the benefits - but knocking ~£75 off the price of building a console-replacement is no bad thing. Even if it doesn't make it cheaper than the next generation of consoles will be, bringing the price of a mini-itx Linux box closer to that point might make it worthwhile as a bit of fun.
     
  4. ShinyAli

    ShinyAli New Member

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    Maybe hate was the wrong word,"Despise with a vengence" would have been a better choice :D
    Seriously, is it that inconvienient to buy your games from other sources than Steam, we all got along just fine without it before and there are other sites to buy and d/load games from without being tied into the Steam system and most gamers are quite capable of patching games when needed without Steams "help".

    My biggest problem with Steam is that many new games require Steam activation, it can only be done once and that wipes out a large part of the the used game market in one stroke, I know because I've tried to reactivate a used game I bought quite legitimately and Steam made it very clear that they never do this under any circumstances, so if you can't afford to buy a new copy of a game how are you supposed to ever play it?

    Game makers claim that Steam activation helps reduce piracy but from what I've often read online it actually encourages it because some people won't bother to buy a used game as there is no point so they just pirate it, of course the game makers have no interest in the used game market as they make no money from it.
     
  5. fdbh96

    fdbh96 New Member

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    I suppose in a way steam combats second hand sales but offering a fair discount in the sales. So instead of waiting to buy a game second hand, I now occasionally wait for a game to be in the sales.
     
  6. SexyHyde

    SexyHyde Member

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    What this man said! I got 5 games for £20 in one sale. Oh and who supports their games as long as Valve do? do they do it for free like Valve? The only thing that comes close to Steam is XBOX Live and Microsoft charge you £40 a year, how much do we pay for Steam?
     
  7. mdshann

    mdshann New Member

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    I think it's funny that publishers complain about used game sales. Any time I have sold used games it was so I could afford to buy a new game that just came out.
     
  8. Adnoctum

    Adnoctum Kill_All_Humans

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    My mistake, because for a moment I thought we were on a site for gaming and computing enthusiasts, the sorts of people who like to tinker and experiment. People who WANT to be be first adopters, and put up with the trials and tribulations that this means.

    Quite frankly, I hope my attitude (which I freely admitted in my post was snotty) does put people off gaming on Linux, especially those people who shouldn't be playing around with it.
    Linux is easy to use (if you come with an open mind), but gaming is going the be a challenge because it is a demanding activity and not many companies support the platform like they do with Windows. Unless efforts are made by the developers to make the game work on Linux, gaming can be fraught.

    Who do I (imperiously and arrogantly) think shouldn't be playing with Linux for gaming purposes?
    • People who are too impatient to deal with the slightest of life's frustrations.
    • People who aren't willing to learn new things, or who give up when confronted with their first problem, or who complain loudly when somebody hasn't spent (uncompensated) hours/days working on their issue/problem, or who are unable to deal calmly and politely with other human beings trying to help them.
    • People whose technical skills stop with the ability to toggle an option in a control panel from On to Off.
    These people should stick to well supported Windows or consoles. Linux isn't ready for them yet.

    The great thing about modern gaming and computing is that it has gone mainstream, everyone games and everyone is a computer user.
    What is missing a lot lately from gaming and computing is the spirit of adventure and experimentation we used to get when we were minority "nerds" and "geeks". Now it is expected that everything will work without effort, and believe me, I like that a lot as well. But there is also a reluctance to tinker and explore, and a lack of resilience to failure and frustration.

    Linux has gone mainstream. It is easy to learn and use and it is robust. I've converted my family to Linux, including my computer illiterate father and my ingrained-Windows-user mother. If they can potter along using Linux without borking the installation and killing components then any of the enthusiasts on Bit-Tech should.
    Gaming on Linux hasn't gone mainstream, and it isn't ready yet. It is still for enthusiasts, and we shouldn't be encouraging shallow (experience and knowledge-wise, not emotionally!) computer users to try it yet, because they will be vocal in expressing their discontent with Linux in general.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 24 Jan 2013
  9. Adnoctum

    Adnoctum Kill_All_Humans

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    Too much. I'm afraid to go back and total up how much Valve extracted from me over the Christmas/New Year period. I have a feeling that it was more than I should have.
    "Set a budget!" I hear someone say.
    Pfft!! Budgets are for things like utilities, and housing payments, and food, and sexual favours. Not for such essentials as computer bits and Steam Sales!
     
  10. Andy Mc

    Andy Mc Well-Known Member

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    Well back in the day I would have been able to walk into town and be able to buy a PC game from one of 6 different high street stores. Today in my nearest town there is not a single place I can think of that actually stocks PC titles (let alone have a good selection).
    As such I have to use Steam or buy online. Steam wins here. I would gladly use other download sites such as Desuria and GoG. I have an Origin account but it is nowhere near as good or usable as Steam is.

    This will soon be a thing of the past as a recent EU ruling made secondhand sales legal. There was an article/forum post on BT about it a few months back. Steam have already honored distance selling rules with regards to a purchase of a game that someone changed their mind about.

    With Steam there is no reason to pirate, as the game will undoubtedly be on sale at some point for a fraction of it's RRP. Also due to the heavy reliance on multiplayer for most games, piracy becomes incredibly difficult as at most the pirate only gets a very limited portion of the game. The only way they can get the full experience is to either run a hacked server, which is normally full of hackers and cheats, or to steal a legitimate users login credentials.
     
  11. Gareth Halfacree

    Gareth Halfacree WIIGII! Staff Administrator Super Moderator Moderator

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    And this is the sort of thing I hate: superior types who think that their choice of operating system defines them as a person, and makes them better than those who use 'lesser' platforms. Linux users who look down their noses at the idiots who need their hands held to do the simplest tasks; Windows users who look down their noses at the idiots who spend hour faffing with kernel compilation for no good reason; OS X users who look down their noses at the uncreative types with their ugly, clunky operating systems.

    Stop it. All of you.

    Everyone should, within reason, be permitted to try every operating system. Linux is not for scientists any more - hell, my mother uses it. Windows isn't the clunky Mac OS rip-off it used to be. OS X has long since dropped its image as the Fisher Price My First Operating System.

    It happens everywhere and with every OS, but it just so happens that Adnoctum is in the former camp: "I use Linux, so I'm clever, and everyone can suck it." That's not helpful. I want people who don't know what they're doing to use Linux, 'cos only then will Linux developers start addressing usability problems still extant in the platform - and as these problems are resolved, Linux becomes a better platform for it. As a Linux user myself, that's a good thing from my perspective.

    In short: sit down, shut up, and let people use whatever operating system lets them get their tasks done the fastest and with the least fuss.
     
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  12. XXAOSICXX

    XXAOSICXX Member

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    Well said G-man :)
     
  13. ShinyAli

    ShinyAli New Member

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    Depends what you mean by "supporting games" most game companies support their games with updates and patches free of charge, what makes Steam so different?
    Only time will tell just how long Steam supports games, I can still play Tomb Raider 1 on windows 7 and that was released in 1996 and it still has some value whereas any game requiring Steam activation suffers 100% depreciation as soon as activated and is then worthless and useless to anyone else.

    A lot of people like to play old games I doubt that will be possible for many games released in the future, many older games are also supported by their fan base that produce patches/installers etc, that may well not be possible (legally) with newer games that require a lot of the game content to be d/loaded when the game is activated.

    Just hope Steam keeps making money because if it stops operating a lot of people are going to be very upset and will wish they simply had a game on a DVD with no middlemen.
     
  14. ShinyAli

    ShinyAli New Member

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    Well said that man, most Windows users don't know what they are doing but can still use it and that's just how Linux has to be, A nut has a kernel and windows are for looking through and that's it as far as most computer users are concerned and as they are the majority of users they are the one's that should really matter to OS developers/sellers.
     
  15. Adnoctum

    Adnoctum Kill_All_Humans

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    Your assumptions regarding my "superiority" is misdirected and inaccurate. I have no opinions of superiority about Linux. I don't hate Windows (with the exception of the W8/not-Metro combination. W8 is otherwise fine).

    They are tools which I use selectively.

    I have converted my Mum to Ubuntu because I got tired of her elderly computer grinding to a halt with XP. No more problems with that. I got my Dad on Ubuntu as his first computer experience because . . . why not?
    I'm not a Linux advocate. If someone expresses an interest, I'll tell them about it and my experience, but other than that I'm not emotionally invested. If they want to genuinely dip a toe, then I'll help them patiently and helpfully.

    What I hate are people who think converting to Linux will come easily and who show no resilience when confronted with a problem and then spam the Internet with "Linux sux". In other words, people who preconceive that it should be Windows then complain when it isn't. It didn't suit you, OK. If you don't like Toyotas, drive a Honda and be happy.
    Do you think getting my Mum (who has used XP for a decade, and nothing before that) to use Ubuntu came easily? Do you think there weren't voices raised as she got frustrated? Do you think a snotty attitude would have helped matters? I get snotty when people who should know better express the same old arguments that I thought we had bludgeoned to death in a suicidal orgy before moving on. Or was that another forum?

    Damned straight. Testify, brother! You can't see me, but I just raised my fist in solidarity.
    Although I am interested in your qualifying statement "within reason".

    If you read what I wrote (either of my posts), you'd see I didn't say any of that. I didn't say any of that, because I don't believe it to be true. My "babies" comment (and the associated YouTube link you excised) was meant to be a humorous dig at our seriousness and quite self-deprecating at my own seriousness as well [Note 1]. I'll be sure to keep my sly sense of humour at home [Note 2].
    I neither said nor implied that I was clever (although I am, as my framed certificate from an online IQ test proves. 52 is always a passing mark, so suck it Bit-Tech!), a brilliant Linux ace (I am self-classifying myself as "competent"), or that Linux users are inherently cleverer than Windows users. Who cares and is it relevant?

    I have a friend (in his 20s) who is a big gamer. He is very proficient with Windows, he grew up with it. I wouldn't dream of encouraging him to try Linux to game on. That is a train wreck I can see coming, for which I have no time and no patience. There are some people (see previous comment re: criteria), as nice as they are, who should not be encouraged to pick up Linux for gaming purposes. For now.
    I have an older friend (in his 60s) who is a late-life born-again computer enthusiast and comfortable in Windows (not a gamer). I introduced him to Ubuntu as the easiest way into Linux. He tore into it with enthusiasm and curiosity, he tinkered, he asked questions that challenged me, he screwed around and broke lots of things. I am always happy to spend the time to help him. He makes it worth it, and I'm a more informed Linux user because of it.

    I said that gaming on Linux isn't ready for the mainstream. People are going to try it, find all manner of barriers and write off Linux. It was the same at one point for Linux as desktop replacement, until there was a concerted effort to make it more accessible. The process of making Linux a viable mainstream gaming choice is really only beginning.


    Note 1: I hate LOL. Nothing ruins humour quicker than hanging a hearty LOL on it. And I'm not overly fond of :hyperactive attention grabbers: either. It may help with non-written subtext in written conversations, but :grr: and :sigh: and . . . :naughty:?
    Note 2: I'm not using slang to imply my sense of humour is gay. Not that there is anything wrong with that. LOL.
     
  16. Gareth Halfacree

    Gareth Halfacree WIIGII! Staff Administrator Super Moderator Moderator

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    I'm often told - usually by those at which it is aimed - that my sarcasm is the lowest form of humour. I posit that posting a link to a completely unrelated and expletive-filled video - with or without an NSFW warning - on an open section of the forum designated for serious discussion regarding the topic of the site's news posts, blogs and articles is one of the few forms that could fairly be described as digging yet deeper.
    And without the input of the gaming masses, who do not yet know Linux, it will never progress. Remember that Valve's goal here is to get gaming on Linux to the point where it's basically Linux Live Arcade: choose a game, wait for it to download, play. If the only people who try Steam for Linux are those who already know Linux, they won't see "oh, and then vi /etc/defaults/steam/config/main.config to change the line that says default_render_target to xrandr unless you've got an Nvidia card in which case..." as being the problem it clearly is.
    My qualification was more to do with being able to try different operating systems, but not forced to try different operating systems, only badly phrased by my pre-coffee brain. Some operating systems should not be tried by certain individuals: the average Windows or OS X user (or, for that matter, Ubuntu Linux user) would be utterly horrified if they were given a Gentoo boot disk and told to get on with it; those involved in audio production will find the parlous state of Linux audio makes it almost completely useless for professional work without a serious amount of effort; those interested purely in gaming shouldn't bother with OS X until all major studios release ports of their games at the same time as the Windows versions. And so forth, and so on.
     
  17. Byron C

    Byron C No liability accepted as a result of this post

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    Haven't we been having these arguments for years now? Amstrad vs. C64 vs. ZX-81, Atari vs. Amiga, Nintendo vs. Sega, Sega vs. Nintendo vs. Sony, Sony vs. Microsoft, Mac vs. PC, Windows vs. Linux, Intel vs. AMD...

    I know exactly what that means and I can still see a problem with it: the fact that you would actively choose to use vi when nano is so much easier! :p And it'll probably need a sudo at the start of the command... :D
     
  18. SexyHyde

    SexyHyde Member

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    How much does the average game get patched and updated after a year or two? If you play old games then your going to have to download all the updates it may have, as the disk will only have the release day code. Patching and updating games is tiresome and I can recall one game where I had a 500+ MB patch that had to be downloaded thrice before I got a working patch. With steam all my games are up to date, playing on other computers is fine, installing on other computers is fine - and I don't need to have the disc or code, I can see what my friends are playing and join them if I fancy, I can gift games to friends quite easily (which I have) they can gift games to me (which they have) and steam can give me extra copies of trials and games
    so I can gift them (and they have, despite always sending off the inset reg cards for boxed games, I never got an extra copy to give to a friend).

    If steam go out of business (which looks extremely unlikely in the short-mid term) I can back up my games, and don't think that all the fans that code extra content for games wouldn't get a hacked steam running to play your backed up content.

    I've used steam since the beta - when it was rubbish and didn't work. What Steam is now is excellent, works well, easy to use, great discounts, great functionality and they don't charge you a penny for it.

    I don't moan when I go to the cinema and cant sell the experience on again. If the lack of resale of games bothers you so much just wait till the game is at a price your willing to pay, [full price] - [expected resale price] = [price you buy game, without moaning about lost resale], It's what I do.
     
  19. ShinyAli

    ShinyAli New Member

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    Good for you, you've obviously embraced "The Steam lifestyle", you only have to look online to see there are many people that are not as easily pleased as you are, "Patching and updating games is tiresome" right, it's such hard work and your obviously computer illiterate which is why your posting on a PC tech site and a lot of people have complained that Steam patches and updates mess their games up.

    So, if I don't want to abide by the Law of Steam and buy a game that is worthless after activation then I should wait until the price comes down so I won't lose so much resale value, how does that work exactly, it's still worth nothing after activation regardless of what you payed for it and it doesn't sound very fair to me in fact it sounds like discrimination, DON'T LIKE THE STEAM WAY, THEN YOU CAN F-CK OFF, nice..

    I object to Steam being the only option to buy and activate a new game when game makers use it that way, one company having so much control over the game industry and becoming a monopoly is not a good thing...time will tell.
     
    Last edited: 25 Jan 2013
  20. fooboi

    fooboi New Member

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    I find this broke linux thing hillarious, considering it is near impossible to do so. I mean I've done some really bad things and fixing it was usually as simple as pie, I haven't reinstalled my linux since moving to fedora 4 years ago upgraded from 14 through to 18 no reinstalls, In that time my Windows gaming rig has been reinstalled at least twice a year and it only gets switched on for gaming.


     

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