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News Valve's Gabe Newell calls Windows 8 a 'catastrophe'

Discussion in 'Article Discussion' started by brumgrunt, 26 Jul 2012.

  1. GoodBytes

    GoodBytes How many wifi's does it have?

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    I am still waiting for an answer.


    This is where most people are and using... why would I develop under Linux when 90%+ are on under Windows? I am creating a major inconvenience for nothing. Sure I can make a Linux version of my app. That's cool. It's a shame that the Linux community is all about Open Source, so won't buy my software.. open source doesn't put bread and butter on my table. And don't tell me I should go with Donations.. because as most donation software I see.. despite being REALLY good, they end up dead, because they stop receiving or don't get at all any donations. And donations isn't much.. usually under 100$ per month.
     
  2. azrael-

    azrael- I'm special...

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    The Metrofication of Visual Studio 2012 (not for the faint of heart). I'm especially fond of the first (or is that the second?) paragraph where you can tell how much MS cares about its users.

    And it gets worse from here. Want (or need) to develop for Windows XP or Server 2003. Sure, no problem. You just need to install VS 2010.

    Oh, and lucky you, if you're a hobby or first-time developer. MS has got you covered with Visual Studio Express. You can create any application you want as long as it's a Metro app. Although MS has promised that a VSX 2012 for Windows Desktop will appear eventually.

    Last, but not least, the Linux password gripe. Mac OSX does it too, although admittedly with a graphical prompt. What's the problem. And is it truly worse than the UAC?

    EDIT: I need to add that while the VS IDE is quite good, VC, for instance, pales compared to GCC.
     
  3. PCBuilderSven

    PCBuilderSven New Member

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    Office runs fine through wine

    Spotify lets you play music and runs in Wine (there is a preview of a native version aswell). I didn't know something existed letting you download songs.

    The common suggestions seem to be CodeBlocks or NetBeans (although there are lots of suggestions at http://stackoverflow.com/questions/24109/c-ide-for-linux). Alternatively use GCC and a text editor

    If you're referring to not needing to know how to become root, then yes you do. Otherwise it would be like complaining you can't change settings on Windows without logging in to an administrator account.

    Drivers will improve when there is a demand for them. With a lack of games for Linux there is no point for high quality drivers, the current ones work for 2D graphics.

    The "marketplace system" is great but only distributes free applications, it doesn't have a facility to make you pay for them.
     
  4. schmidtbag

    schmidtbag New Member

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    Depends on your distro. LibreOffice does have a decent spell check (IIRC, you're canadian, so you should use en-ca) and it just recently got grammar check if you install the missing libraries.

    I believe Rhythmbox and Banshee can do this - I don't download music much. In linux, you actually don't even need any special software to access ipods or iphones; they're accessible in file browsers but the programs I mentioned can do it in a more user-friendly manner. There's also gsharkdown which is legal depending on what country you're in. VLC also has internet radio. And there's last-fm clients for linux. If by unlimited you mean free and legal, well that's just contradictory and whatever you use in windows for that is likely illegal and not telling you.

    There's plenty of decent ones. I personally use Geany, but since I'm a python developer, I'm not aware if that is missing any core features for c++ or java. There's other similar programs like KATE. Many of these IDEs are expandable via plugins to suit your needs more, but by default they're all pretty good for coding. Keep in mind if you're developing with windows in mind, they might not be as useful as you'd prefer, but if you're focusing on linux or multi-os development then they're just fine.


    You are both right and wrong about this - it depends on the distro you go for. The more advanced distros such as gentoo, arch, and debian tend to have very rude people who don't like questions that are considered beginner questions. However, I have noticed that the Arch and gentoo forums are VERY friendly if you ask a question that actually affects the future of the distro.

    Keep in mind that for the advanced distros, there is such thing as a stupid question. For example, lets say you wanted a drive to automatically mount at boot. That's a legit good question for the ubuntu forums, but is considered something you should already know for a distro like Arch or Gentoo. So when you come to those communities for a question like that, they wonder why you stooped to their advanced level when you can't even handle it.


    In many linux distros today, you don't need the terminal at all. But since you claim one shouldn't be needed at all, well, apparently you don't know windows well enough since there are SEVERAL things in windows that you need the CLI or regedit to do. Regedit is like 1 tiny step above using a CLI.


    All of linux's GPU drivers (except intel) aren't good enough. In some cases the proprietary AMD drivers are faster than Windows', but they're still littered with problems.

    No? The only "marketplace" I'm aware of is Canonical's app store, which is very new and basically limited to just ubuntu. Programs like synaptic package manager somewhat resemble a marketplace and it's package managers like these why I feel linux has a huge advantage over windows.
     
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  5. steveo_mcg

    steveo_mcg New Member

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    Goodbytes its quite well know that you are invested in the MS Ecosystem, not every one is. If you don't want to use Linux that's fine, Linux has never tried to take over the world. Believe it or not there is life out side of Windows and money to be made for developing for other platforms.

    Now if you don't want to use Linux why continue this conversation? Mr Newell has stated an opinion which runs counter to your experience with Win8, I don't see what relevance the existence of Open Office, Spotifiy, Gimp etc etc has here.
     
  6. GoodBytes

    GoodBytes How many wifi's does it have?

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    I don't get it... If you wonder about the layout... the common complain with 2010 is that many companies uses remote desktop a lot.. so 2010 design was a pain to program remotely due to the fancy looking layout. Developers, don't mind Metro'ing of the programs. I personally, prefer 2010 layout, I mean I don't remote desktop, at work we have it set up differently. But it's not terrible either.. sure beats pre-2010. Plus the added features are great.

    Heuu no. You CAN develop for any Windows.. even Windows 95 and DOS. It's just Visual Studio that won't run under XP. The same as Visual Studio 2010 won't run on 2000, 98, 95, and so on... Heck my software that I am working on for your guys won't support Windows XP.
    I won't be surprised if the new Office will follow the same faith.. no XP support. It could also be due to technical reasons. Office for instance uses hardware accelerated graphics using Windows framework. You can only do it like a game... which isn't ideal. The best you can get is panel inside the program that display 3D.. like StarCraft 2 map editor or 3DS Max, but not mix both. Of course, anything is possible, but that's the path that Microsoft picked.

    Oh, and lucky you, if you're a hobby or first-time developer. MS has got you covered with Visual Studio Express. You can create any application you want as long as it's a Metro app. Although MS has promised that a VSX 2012 for Windows Desktop will appear eventually.

    Last, but not least, the Linux password gripe. Mac OSX does it too, although admittedly with a graphical prompt. What's the problem. And is it truly worse than the UAC?

    EDIT: I need to add that while the VS IDE is quite good, VC, for instance, pales compared to GCC.[/QUOTE]
     
  7. PCBuilderSven

    PCBuilderSven New Member

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    Amazon MP3 has a Linux client. You can then sync to your iPod/iPhone with Banshee, Rhythmbox or Amarok.
     
  8. GoodBytes

    GoodBytes How many wifi's does it have?

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    If Windows fails, Microsoft fails... It cost billions to operate... you can't just shrink things.
    Also Wine isn't a solution, many feature of programs don't work or not well. Games on wine is still a big problem. You have to wait for compatibility, unless you are lucky and it magically works perfectly.

    Spotify doesn't have a Linux version, and isn't available in Canada. Also, I can't download unlimited music... I can stream, or make an offline playlist, not just get the music anytime, in anyway.

    All that you provided are quiet primitive environments compare to the flexibility and power of Visual Studio. Their strength however is that it support other languages that Visual Studio don't.

    If you are an administrator type account, you have a click of a button to press to elevate access to what you are doing. That's my point.

    Chicken and the egg issue then.



    The spell check and grammar check is really primitive on LibreOffice.. Still a lot of work needs to be done, sadly.


    Those are music players that can play internet radio.. not download. Having a built-in web browser with a link to Amazon MP3 store doesn't count. Plus it's only available in the U.S.

    True, but you can't buy a song form it. Also I am not looking for internet radio. I am not looking at listening to music, I am looking at acquiring, legally, music, unlimited.

    Good point. But that should not happen. That is asking to build a ghetto of sorts.

    And that also highlight another problem with Linux.. too many distro. Imagine my dad or mom picking a computer.. and the store clerk goes "Ok so which distro you want: Here is the list to choose from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Linux_distributions"
    Yyyeeaa.. you can see their eyes crossing, right there.

    The only time you use command line in Windows is for specific diagnostics, or use a feature that's really but really specialized. Which, you can find a million and one applications, mostly free, that can give you a nice interface, which can do things simpler by batching action for you.

    2 Examples:
    -> Windows ISO to USB/DVD tool
    -> Many interface software for xcopy

    Anyway, this is off topic...
    As much as I like competition, and actually want Linux to be better known. My point is that Newell is bashing Windows 8 not for any other reason beside his personal interest (competition to Steam).
    And those jumping the gun, going "I am going to Linux".. well this isn't a smart move. And finally the StartScreen isn't all that bad once you you arrange stuff around, like I did (see pictures a few post back).
     
  9. azrael-

    azrael- I'm special...

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    Read what it says on the page I linked to (and what meanwhile has become common knowledge): If you want to develop for Windows prior to Vista you need to install VS2010. The VS2012 tool chain does not support Windows XP or Windows Server 2003. Most professional developers are pissed because of that. MS might no longer care about Windows prior to Vista, but a lot of businesses out there do.

    Also, it seems you need to read the blog posts about the VS2012 IDE more carefully. Menus in caps (already linked to) and a dark theme (although this has apparently dropped been now). Ergonomics be damned.
     
  10. GoodBytes

    GoodBytes How many wifi's does it have?

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    US only service and also not unlimited download. Rhythmbox and Amarok, also doesn't have SmartDJ let alone an iTunes Genuis replacement system.
     
  11. lp rob1

    lp rob1 Well-Known Member

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    I could see the flames from the General section! And it is absolutely packed in there!

    Right - where to start. Professionals, who need specific professional software. Most of the time, the professional software only runs on Windows (think Autodesk or other CAD software). In these cases, there is no escaping the cold crushing hand of Windows. They are essentially forced to use Windows, as developers will not start developing for other OSes while there is no demand for them, and the professionals will not use the other OSes as they are locked into Windows. Catch 22, huh?

    But most of us are not professionals who absolutely require Windows software. Most people (statistically) only use computers as tools to manage, document, and plot out their work. For these purposes, all the OS needs is an office suite (LibreOffice), a web browser, and support for networking technologies. These three things (and more) are perfectly covered by software on Linux, most of which is actually cross-platform software and in use in many Windows companies as well.
    This is the category that most of us here fall into. On top of this, one of the main things that brings us together is our love of the PC master-race PC games. And hopefully, with Gabe Newell's pioneering, we can bring mainstream games to Linux too, which increases developer interest in developing for Linux, and positive feedback takes the rest from there. Currently, apart from games, Linux does everything most of us need. In the future, even the games will not limit us.

    And once consumer usage of Linux has increases, perhaps to 20% or more, professional companies will start to think about getting in on a slice of the pie and port their professional software to Linux as well. Then professionals, sick of being bullied by Microsoft and Windows, will gradually move to Linux.

    Driver support for Linux is another thing you bring up GoodBytes. Perhaps you saw the video of Linus Torvalds swearing at Nvidia? The Linux community cannot change the state of device drivers that easily - open source projects like nouveau are trying their best, but in the end it is up to the device manufacturer to maintain their products. With the increase in game developer interest in the Linux platform, we may see an increase in the quality of ATI and Nvidia drivers.

    The one thing that I agree with you about is Visual Studio. If there is one thing that Microsoft got right, it is that. Nothing can come close to the overall finesse of the IDE - although large and sometimes slow, it has features that nothing else can rival.

    And now I am off to my nuclear bunker to wait out the storm...
     
  12. steveo_mcg

    steveo_mcg New Member

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    Actually that is a good point, how many users need anything but a browser now? Both MS and Google offer decent web based office suites, basic photo editing is available on-line as is cheap storage.
     
  13. schmidtbag

    schmidtbag New Member

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    I'm not sure how the grammar check is, I wouldn't be surprised if it sucked. What's wrong with the spell check? Once in a while it considers a word misspelled that I know is correct, but just add it to the dictionary - if you know you're right, does it matter? Same goes for grammar.

    So what if its a built in browser? Does that remove functionality? It might seem a little lazy but the programs are free and open source after all - much like I said in a previous post, the problem with a lot of linux newcomers is the wrong expectations.

    I 100% agree with both of your points there - my greatest gripe about linux is there are too many distros that strive for the same purposes and too many package managers. The amount of variation is unnecessary and actually hurts the community. It really bothers me too when people make entire distros for 1 purpose, such as "ubuntu christian edition". Seriously, christian edition? There's also a muslim edition. How hard is it to just create a metapackage which will install all those programs and themes for you?


    Ok, then you can argue the same about linux. When you go for something deliberately restrictive like GNOME, then you're going to need a CLI or install another program.

    I agree - I dislike Windows 8 but it isn't nearly as bad as Newell is making it seem.


    Uh... linux does have graphical prompts for that, such as gksu or kdesu (which are run automatically). Things like this are important becasue it prevents just anybody from altering the system - this is why linux and Mac are natively more secure than windows. UAC is completely pointless because anybody can just click "allow" and people are so instinctively used to clicking allow that you could allow a program that is actually mallicious. UAC accomplishes nothing, it's MS taking the easy way out of people whining about viruses and crap starting automatically.
     
  14. azrael-

    azrael- I'm special...

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    I was specifically referring to GB's complaints about the terminal and sudo. Most Mac users probably don't even know that such a thing exists on their computer. :)
     
  15. asura

    asura jack of all trades

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    I've said it before, and I'll say it again; when Vectorworks and Photoshop hit Linux, I'll be a happier, Windows free man. However, I'm a realist and realise this is likely to never happen (or so far in the future that these words will be long forgotten) as both applications are ready cross platform, if I'm not happy with Microsoft, I could always move to Apple...
     
  16. rollo

    rollo Well-Known Member

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    Alot of issues could stem from the simple fact if microsoft follows apples route ( which it will on tablets and phones ) then we could see a desktop version of windows that has only one way to access games and applications and that will be through a windows store. Nothing stopping them from doing this legally or technically, Arm version of windows along with tablet and phone versions will most likely be like this already.

    That would pretty much destroy most indie devs which steam has allowed to thrive.

    Will everyone mass migrate to linux not in a 100 years. This is not a phone where you can switch between andriod versions and everything will work stil. Linux for the most part still lacks a User friendly interface along with easy installation of programs, It also does not support nvidia graphics cards very easily and nvidia has no plans to improve that support.

    All the major proffesional applications support Windows and Mac thats it, and the mac support is touch and go in places for certain pro applications. Games are also bearly supported under native Mac and that has a larger market share than linux ( linux has 1.41 % at last check).

    Combined data is below for market share ( Source : http://www.netmarketshare.com/operating-system-market-share.aspx?qprid=10)

    Mac market share is around 5%
    windows has 85% give or take
    ios has 5%
    andriod 1.5%
    linux has 1.4 %

    for linux to aquire another 19% in a short period of time would take.

    1./ The general none tech consumer to be told it first exists as 99% of people dont even know what linux is.
    2./ A more user friendly installation
    3./ A it just works scenario that most windows users are used to with things like facebook ect.
    4./ GPU Driver support from AMD And Nvidia

    Can you really see linux going on an advertising campain, Apple must be on tv every day about there products it has a 10% total market share for everything that it sells.

    GL to your linux idea but it wont take off for the 99% who dont even know what it is.
     
  17. schmidtbag

    schmidtbag New Member

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    I'm not sure aout vectorworks but photoshop is a weird topic to discuss - adobe themselves posted a poll on their website asking for opinions on a linux release. Within a matter of days, literally THOUSANDS of people replied, which got adobe to close the topic since they understood the desire and demand. However, over a year later and they're STILL like "meh, I don't think this is worth it" when photoshop could be the 1 and only program that prevent people from switching away from windows or mac. Adobe probably has worse priorities than any other software company I can think of, and I'd still say that even if they immediately decided to create the linux client.


    @rollo
    Linux isn't known because nobody advertises it and almost no OEMs will ship it for desktop PCs. Also, since desktop releases aren't something you can buy, people won't encounter it in stores. However, even if what I just mentioned weren't the case, linux as of right now would still remain unpopular do to the relative user unfriendliness of it, but, it'd be more popular than it is now. More popularity would mean more developers, and more developers could potentially mean more user-friendly tools.

    Also, I wouldn't say the nvidia drivers are the problem. Nvidia has the best proprietary drivers, it has most features people need or want except optimus or KMS. AMD has the notorious drivers. As another point to make, linux is only difficult to install things if you decide to avoid using package managers. For example in debian-based distros, it is easier to install programs in linux than windows if you decide to use synaptic, but is harder to install programs if you download them from a web browser.
     
  18. rocknroll237

    rocknroll237 New Member

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    "I'd definitely switch to Linux if there were good support for games/proper drivers for HW. "

    I've said exactly the same thing before on another forum and now, I'm one more step close to moving to Linux....
     
  19. N17 dizzi

    N17 dizzi Well-Known Member

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    I'll wait and see, Windows 7 support isn't ending soon.
     
  20. SexyHyde

    SexyHyde Member

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    as soon as TF2 gets ported, Linux Mint is becoming my main distro! simple as that. "Build it and they will come", thanks for building Gabe!
     
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