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Blogs What’s next for the GeForce 500-series?

Discussion in 'Article Discussion' started by Lizard, 10 Nov 2010.

  1. jason27131

    jason27131 Lolzers

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    lol. I use to read bit-tech cause it was unbias. Now according to what I'm seeing in reviews and this specific blog, seems like it's going green. Not cool man.
     
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  2. Kúsař

    Kúsař regular bit-tech reader

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    Hmmm...and I thought 460 was "final" version of mid-range fermi GPU just like 580 is final version of high end fermi.

    I can't see AMD loosing against nVidia unless 6970 performs worse than 6870. It's new architecture and with a few months tweaks we're looking into fine battle between GT5# and HD6# series...
    And given the efficiency of 6800 GPUs, AMD can afford some price cuts on these...
     
  3. Waynio

    Waynio Relaxing

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    Hmmm, nvidia coming back with a vengeance, finally, I was expecting all this with what was said with fermi but was delayed & didn't live up to the hype nvidia were hinting at & instead was noisy & hot.
    The best gpu upgrade I ever had though was the 8800gtx. If this turns out true I might be selling my 5870's to buy 1 & put the rest towards aluminium :D.

    But

    Blah, it's a blog, take with a pinch of salt until results roll in when available ;).
     
  4. Snips

    Snips I can do dat, giz a job

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    What about the Nvidia bashing evildead666?
     
  5. PopcornMachine

    PopcornMachine Snacker

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    Thanks for the biased speculation and no actual information. designed to fuel pointless arguments.
     
  6. The boy 4rm oz

    The boy 4rm oz Project: Elegant-Li

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    I was planning on getting a GTX470 for my upcoming build. If they release a GTX570 I will be extremely interested. I would like a GTX580 but the $699AUD asking price is a bit much, although it is less then I paid for my 8800GTX lol.
     
  7. Evildead666

    Evildead666 What's a Dremel?

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    My 8800's were great cards. ;)
    Not pro or bashing anyone, cards maybe, but not the company itself.
    we all have ups and downs, and seeing the prices the gtx470, and 460 are going for now its great price war, and win-win for us, the buyers ;)

    just not wanting to see such a thing on the front page.
    If it was in the blog section, I wouldn't have seen it lol.

    He admits he slants to Nvidia, I get it, just not on the front page.
     
  8. memeroot

    memeroot aged and experianced

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    bit tech bias... lol....

    did you read the reviews of the 4xx series?

    now there has been a price drop nvidia are competing again (though probably not at much profit) and if they can up the count and clocks on their cards as the report says then ati will have to stop making quite so many $$$ and drop the prices of their small die cards to compete

    this is good
     
  9. Krayzie_B.o.n.e.

    Krayzie_B.o.n.e. What's a Dremel?

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    Wow did I miss the Nvidia TWIMTBP screen splash before I read this article?

    Is the GTX 580 a good card? Yes it is as it runs cooler, quieter, uses less Watts and has a huge performance boost.(about time) do your speculations make any sense? NO. cause the GTX 460 GF104 isn't missing any SM as it is a fully utilized designed unlike the GF100.

    Rumor has it the GTX 570 will use only 480 sm thus making it a cooler quieter more efficient GTX 480. No word on a GTX 560 although I'm more interested in Zotac's GTX 460 x2 which can perform on par with a GTX 580 (see GTX 460 sli benchmarks) but for a lower price (2 GTX 460 1gb $420)

    As far as AMD goes a HD 6870 CF beats a GTX 580 (see benchmarks). AMD only needs the HD 6970 and the 6950 to stay within 8 frames of their GTX 580 and 570 counterparts while releasing at a lower price point as this has been AMD strategy for some time. The HD 6990 will take care of the rest at the extreme price level just like the HD 5970 is still the fastest now.

    It's all about the $150 to $300 sweet spot in video cards and AMD has realized this (HD 6850 6870) and so has Nvidia (GTX 460 and soon to be GTX 470).
    AMD or Nvidia you can't go wrong as both companies are at war for gamer's wallets and it's a win win situation for all pC gamers.
     
  10. Anakha

    Anakha Minimodder

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    No. they are under NDA, a legally binding agreement. If they break that NDA, not only do they get sued into oblivion (And CustomPC with them), but they also don't get any early looks at future AMD hardware. Asking them to do so is just plain stupid. Have a little patience.
    Going by your definition, a 68xx is "a mostly fixed 57xx". This still makes the GTX580 newer, as Fermi was delayed by a long six months (as all the ATi/AMD fanboys know full well, as they made the most of that time to muck-rake NVidia).
    The 460 was the first mid-range card they produced on Fermi.
    480 = High end v1, 460 = Mid-Range v1.
    Therefore 580 = High End v2, 560 = Mid-Range v2.
    Given the performance gap between the 5870 and the 5890, it's possible to estimate the performance difference between the 6870 and the 6970 (Given that they are, essentially, GPU refreshes). That %age increase puts the 6970 still underperforming the 580 at this point, though it'll be a close-run thing.
    This is a blog entry. This makes it one person's opinion. Given that he has experience in the field, and the capability to do basic math (As shown by the included tables showing his calculation), this goes from "Biased speculation" to "Educated guess". AMD/ATi fans might not like it, as it knocks them from the pedestal they've been trying to cling to since Fermi came out, so let's try spelling this out:

    IF NVidia refreshes their mid-range cards (Highly likely, as they've done so in the past) AND
    IF the performance difference between it and the newly-released high-end card is similar to the difference between the 460 and 480 (Quite possible), AND
    IF NVidia release it at the same price point (Which they are likely to do, as the manufacturing costs are the same),
    THEN the "560" will wipe the floor with all currently released cards at it's price point (Namely, the 6870 and 6850).

    Admittedly, there are 3 big IFs in there, but all those IFs are highly likely to happen.

    ATi/AMD have shown their hand for mid-range, and at the moment they have a winner. NVidia have not answered that play yet, and they're playing their cards close to their chest, but what they have shown for the high-end indicates a very strong mid-range hand. We'll soon find out just how ATi/AMD are going to answer NVidia's high-end challenge, and shortly after that we will probably hear NVidia's mid-range response. As it stands at the moment, though, if NVidia disabled an SM, downgraded the RAM, and called it good (As it has a history of doing, look at the 470, 9600 and so on) you get an idea of what a 560 would look like, and that is mighty tempting, and more powerful than the 68xx's. Which is where this blog post is coming from, IMHO.

    I am not an NVidia rep, nor am I an ATi/AMD rep, not do I have a vested interest in this fight (My machine is still running a Athlon 64 x2 5600+ with 2GB RAM, there's no way I could keep up with cards like these).
     
  11. Skiddywinks

    Skiddywinks Minimodder

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    The 69xx series is not a refresh. It is considerably different to both the 58xx series and the 68xx series. Maybe not significantly, but definitely considerably.
     
  12. Krayzie_B.o.n.e.

    Krayzie_B.o.n.e. What's a Dremel?

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    The GTX 460 is not a Disabled GTX 480 as the 460(GF104) ran cooler quieter and more efficient than the GTX 480 (GF100) so stop saying that.
    Sure it is based on Fermi Architecture but obvious lt went through a different engineering process to achieve it's performance versus your idea of just turning off SM.

    Sorry but just disabling the GTX 580 down to a GTX 560 doesn't always work just look at the horror show that is the GTX 465 and on the AMD side see HD 5830.
    The engineering process of the GTX 460 got Nvidia to the GTX 580. Sure Nvidia could disable some Sm to acheive a GTX 570 but a GTX 560 may or may not be feasible especially for that price bracket .

    I don't see a GTX 560 wiping the floor with a HD 6870, beating it in performance by 2% sure but not at a $230 price point in which the HD 6870 is and of course will drop if needed if a GTX 560 arrives.
    The GTX 570 is the key for Nvidia if they can get it to perform slightly better than a GTX 480 for around a price of $350 then it will garner huge sales figures.

    Nvidia having to refresh their line up within 8 months of release shows they took a beating but all questions of their impending return to dominance will be answered when the HD 6970 is released.
     
  13. thehippoz

    thehippoz What's a Dremel?

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    I would think the 6970 will beat the 580 and less power- probably better scaling too

    but if bit has it in house.. and they are still blowing the green goblin
     
  14. Krayzie_B.o.n.e.

    Krayzie_B.o.n.e. What's a Dremel?

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    I seriously don't see the HD 6970 beating the GTX 580, maybe coming up 3 to 6% short but selling at a cheaper price. The HD 6990 will be AMD ultimate card that surpasses the GTX 580 which hasn't surpassed the HD 5970 except maybe in Far Cry 2 and Metro 2033 w/ DOF and Tessellation on.
     
  15. rickysio

    rickysio N900 | HJE900

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    Oh wow, did I miss the memo about the comments being taken over by a fanboy parade today?
     
  16. [USRF]Obiwan

    [USRF]Obiwan What's a Dremel?

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    Just as i want to buy a 460 you tell me there is a 560 coming for the same price.. Damn you!
     
  17. dispie

    dispie What's a Dremel?

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    this is going a bit fast,

    i just installed my 2x 460 cards a 3-4 months ago and the new ones are already under way and so much faster damn you indeed.

    aldo there is still much to overklock on my overklokked 460 cards and i don't see me needing anymore power then these 2 give at this moment but still this is going way to fast.
     
  18. Xtrafresh

    Xtrafresh It never hurts to help

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    No need to get rude man, have a little patience with your fellow human being. Also, i disagree with you. NDAs are all fine and dandy, but the industry is using them to effectively shut down all investigative journalism. Asking a journalist to do a littl more then play along with the NDAs going (a LOT at the moment) is very healthy imho.
    FAIL. It doesn't work like that, this is exactly the logic that the article tries to apply and also the logic that nVidia wants to put out there by naming this card the 580 instead f the 490. You are buying into the nVidia marketing machine, and we all know what they are shovelling.

    THE GTX460 ALREADY HAS MOST CHARACTERISTICS OF A GTX580. THEREFORE, YOU CANNOT APPLY THE 480 -> 580 HIKE TO A SPECULATED 460 -> 560.

    Ahem. Oh sorry, capslock got stuck there. And the text seems to be printed in bold too. How odd...
    Wat.

    First of all the 5890 does not exist. I'm not sure which performance gap you have in mind, but if you do want to make a forced analogy (which would be false for various reasons) the only valid one would be the gap between 5870 and 5770. This gap is around 70%. That would put the 6970 at 70% above the 6870, and that is well above the GTX580.

    To recap:
    First, you apply false logic, (results from the past are no guarantee for the future).
    Second, while applying this logic you fill it with nonexistant data.
    Third, even then, you fail at math and come to the wrong conclusion.

    In short:
    wat

    Yeah, let's play this game. No wait, let's not. It's a blog entry, ok, but it's also a front page article that comes together with the GTX580 review. I was hoping/expecting to read about some genuine analysis, not wild conjecture that is easily proven false (the GTX460 has no SMs left to unlock, and already most of the architecture that gives the GTX580 a lead over the GTX480).
    I am not a fanboy, i have as much disdain for Charlie's ramblings as i have for this piece of proze. I just don't like it when a site that i previously went to for reviews and analysis starts filling their pages with drivel.
    Yeah, let's spell it out. None of those IFs are likely to happen. Ready? GO!

    IF NVidia refreshes their mid-range cards (There are no signs they will do so before 28nm, so this chance is at best 50/50) AND
    IF the performance difference between it and the newly-released high-end card is similar to the difference between the 460 and 480 (possible, but only if nVidia pulls NEW tricks out of the hat, see the part where my caps lock button got conveniently stuck above. Let's be generous, put this at 30%), AND
    IF NVidia release it at the same price point (they won't as they will want to see ROI from their R&D on a new card, but let's say 50/50 again just for fun),
    THEN the "560" will wipe the floor with all currently released cards at it's price point (Namely, the 6870 and 6850 (AMD might cut the prices significantly, but they probably won't so this has a likelihood of 80%)).
    50% * 30% * 50% * 80% = 6% :thumb:
    And here is where it really goes wrong. The GTX460 is not the same chip as a GTX480, which is the ONLY reason why nVidia can put it at a good pricepoint. If GTX560 would be a NF110 chip, instead of a hypothetical NF114, there's no way they could compete at 6850/6870 prices.

    Trollbait article.

    EDIT for GTX560 speculations above:
    Try googling for GTX560. Aside from the Black Ice watercooling radiator, you won't find a thing, not even speculation. You guys are all geeding on what the clever naming people of nVidia are shovelling.
     
    Last edited: 11 Nov 2010
  19. Snips

    Snips I can do dat, giz a job

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    Wow that's dedication Xtrafresh. shame no one will read it.
     
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  20. memeroot

    memeroot aged and experianced

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    @Xtrafresh

    " I was hoping/expecting to read about some genuine analysis, not wild conjecture that is easily proven false (the GTX460 has no SMs left to unlock"

    I count that 460 has 48 sms locked

    quote and picture,

    http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/MSI/GeForce_GTX_460_Cyclone_OC_1_GB/

    NVIDIA's GeForce Fermi (GF) 104 GPU comes with 384 shaders (CUDA cores) in the silicon but NVIDIA has disabled 48 of them to reach their intended performance targets and to improve GPU harvesting. Unlike with GF100, the GF104 has more populated streaming multiprocessors (SMs), 48 cores per SM vs. 32 cores per SM on GF100.
     
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