Discussion in 'Serious' started by Kovoet, 13 Jul 2010.
What about it?
Reminds me a little the goggle jacket fad in the UK. Some called them "Burkas for men"
I can understand their reasoning behind the bill but I'm undecided on whether I actually agree with it.
If I'm honest, any piece of clothing that covers somebody's face in public and isn't required for some sort of HSE reason should be banned.
I just don't understand how you can have any sort of social interaction with someone who has their face covered. It would be like talking to someone on the phone.
God the new BBC website is horrible, small text on a massive white screen O_O
Do we think this will now happen throughout Europe
The ban makes sense. I don't mind the other veils, but hiding ones face in public just isn't right.
The British gov wouldn't have the balls to do it.
I think it should be banned its anti social and a security threat.
Perhaps this is why the Amish says that talking over the phone is half a conversation? they do not see the person and therefore they cannot...
You should perhaps start to think in terms of mindset and scale and then take it from there.
I think we should be asking why people feel threatened by a Muslim lady choosing to cover her face? If a woman want's to wear one, and many do, then I don't see the problem. I think this is just a vote spinning tactic, and another way of demonising the Muslim faith. I do agree that teachers shouldn't be wearing them, or people who deal with the public. But if someone wants to go about their own business, then I have no problem with it whatsoever. I certainly don't feel threatened by it, or fear for my safety in the presence of Mulsim women who choose to cover their faces.
The French philosophy has been that if you outlaw certain cultural modes of dress, you promote cultural integration. With the banning of head scarves in state school that certainly seems to be working to some extent --but in France, Muslims are largely integrated; they go way back in French history. It is their children that are segregating again and choosing to wear the head scarf. On the other hand, Muslims who feel more strongly about this issue may simply be more motivated to send their children to their own private schools. That's more segregation, right there.
In state schools kids can be expected to adhere to a certain uniform dress code. But can you tell people how to dress in their personal lives? The modern Western viewpoint is that people should be able to wear what they want within certain rules of decency. I don't see how a burka could possibly offend or intimidate. Personally I don't agree with it; I think it subjugates women but it is not my place to tell them what they should wear.
Furthermore I imagine such a law to be unenforceable. What are you going to do when some Muslim lady chooses to wear the burka in public anyway? Arrest her, and drag her kicking and screaming to the police station? Confiscate it? It can only lead to ugly scenes in which Western cops are seen to bully some poor Muslim woman. That's going to promote East-West relations...
It is epically stupid to make an issue of this. This is Western paternalistic colonialist mentality at its purest: imposing our cultural values on other cultures and deciding what is morally right and best for them. Western democratic secular culture has a lot of good points going for it but as always we are losing that point by ramming it down other people's throat.
It is especially stupid when you consider that there are an estimated 200 women in France whom use the Burka, so a lot of work and tax money for what
However while it is true that this is somewhat imposing our beliefs on other people, do consider that in other places with Sharia law you can get imprisoned or even shot for not following the teachings of Allah. while this is no excuse we have to draw a line somewhere, there are some things that we can't allow in the western world.
personally I would however have a law that forces everyone to show their faces anywhere they need to use ID. In buses, banks, buying tobacco and towards the police of course.
stuartpb, I do see your point, but just one thing, how do you know it is a woman
My personal issue with the burka isn't that I feel threatened around them, or even uncomfortable - but it's the constant questioning of whether or not that particular person is wearing one by choice.
Political correctness aside, I think we can all agree that the Muslim faith is, at best, slightly unfair and discriminatory towards women. So when I see somebody wearing a burka, I cannot help but see a personification of that discrimination.
I fully understand that maybe I just need to mind my own damn business, but in a very hyperbolic way, seeing a women wearing one is like seeing a Jew walking around with a numerical tattoo on their wrist, or a black guy carrying around shackles. Again, they both could be doing so by choice, but that still doesn't stop it from being a visual slap in the face of everything we've achieved as a species.
Don't get me wrong, I'm aware of the irony of me promoting personal freedoms while questioning the freedom of wearing a burka, but something still doesn't sit right.
What I think it boils down to is this: as a society we know there are countless discriminatory injustices that happen every day, for a variety of reasons, which receive no publicity, no public outcry and, most importantly, no restitution. Most of us wont even give it a second thought. So when we do see something so obvious, which we think is 'fixable', as misguided as it is, we try to do so.
I would like to ask one question is what I was getting at. What would if in those countries they were to open a church of England the likes of. I doubt very much we would be able to. The line should be drawn we should live according to the rules of each country we choose to live and abide by those rules where ever it maybe
Don't see an issue with allowing them to wear the headgear.
I do like the line that the husbands face a significantly larger fine and potential jail time if they force their wives to wear one. If the women want to wear them on their own free will, that's fine, but being forced to wear one is not acceptable in a free society.
In addition, as lp1988 said, there are specific situations where any sort of face covering should be disallowed. For instance, my local bank requires everyone to remove hats inside. I've walked in with a regular baseball cap on, and have been told to remove it before speaking with the teller. It's to make it easier to identify me, in the case of robbery or fraud. When I get my picture taken for a photo ID, I cannot wear anything on my head, and if I am in a situation where I need to show my ID to someone (getting into a bar, large financial transactions, legal stuff), then I have to remove headgear as well. And I know that many schools prohibit hats and sunglasses inside. They want to be able to see if you are paying attention or not, and a baseball cap or a pair of sunglasses would make that impossible. Again, fair protection - any situation where it is not acceptable to wear a face covering for safety or security reasons, nobody should be able to wear a face covering. But just going around in public with your face covered? that's not a problem.
Now, granted, most of us probably have a moral objection to this practice as it is subjugation of women, but a moral objection does not equate with legal justification to create legislation outlawing it.
I'm surprised no one has yet made the suggestion of us kicking the Muslims and the Jews out of Europe and England already, or have them convert to Christianity.
I have no problems with religion but it gets a bit much when people are so scared they say the wrong thing in there own country. I am up for everyone living together whatever colour or religion.
But people have to adapt to the countries they move to not the other way round
Could you elaborate on that? I've seen and heard that statement in countless debates about immigration and other areas of xenophobia. However, I've never heard anyone actually describe what they consider to be proper integration. Do you want them to adopt your style of clothing? Speak your language? Eat your food? Celebrate your holidays?
Whenever someone falls back on the claim that foreigners have to integrate, I can't help but think it's just another way of saying, "I don't like the fact that they are not like me." Perhaps instead of telling foreigners that they have to adapt, it would be easier if we told them what parts of their culture they were allowed to retain.
Although the ban has been proposed in France, I think it's interesting that some of the British people on this forum are expressing a concern for their safety from the masked Muslims, especially with the events unfolding in Northern Ireland.
i can elaborate that, in leicester, there is a large muslim community.
a man had a pig in his window, no problem for non muslims. but he was ordered to remove the pig, as it offended the muslim community.
if, i were to move to a muslim country, i would be bound by their culture and laws ( most muslim countries laws are very heavily tied in with the muslim religion).
however it seems 'SOME' muslims think we should abide by muslim laws, in our own country, this is not on, they should adapt to our way, or just keep it to themselves.
why should the muslim community, try and add sharia law to our own? if they want to live by those draconian laws, they should live in a country where sharia law exists.
dont get me wrong, i have no problem with legal immigrants living here in the uk, as long as they pay their taxes, and don't interfere with my way of life.
as far as the Burka is concerned, don't most of the muslim women that wear them, do so as their husband/father has ordered them to, as part of their upbringing.
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