Imagine there's no heaven, It's easy if you try, No hell below us, Above us only sky, Imagine all the people living for today... Imagine there's no countries, It isnt hard to do, Nothing to kill or die for, No religion too, Imagine all the people living life in peace... Imagine no possesions, I wonder if you can, No need for greed or hunger, A brotherhood of man, Imagine all the people Sharing all the world... You may say Im a dreamer, but Im not the only one, I hope some day you'll join us, And the world will live as one.
The problems with any beliefs are the radicals who defend their own beliefs and are unwilling to see others as true. The simple truth, as sad as it may be, is that there will ALWAYS be people who insult others' beliefs. People need to learn to accept this. Most religious problems arise when two different religions clash and some members of both are simply unwilling to accept the existance of the other. Also, I don't see how these people can 'defend' Mohammed so violently and ignore the Koran verse Marya cited. Some people seem to "choose" the aspects of a religion which appeal to them and ignore the rest. Religion is great for some people, but not for others. It's great support for people in difficult times. But it's also an excuse to kill people. All religions (and all other institutions) have powerful corrupt people who use it as a method to increase personal wealth. Many wars have been fought by the church supposedly to "save the heathen," but in reality are just to gain economic power.
As lovely as it is to see everyone's opinions on the subject voiced in a clear, concise and sensible manner, the entire point of this thread isnt to debate the validity of religious philosophies, its to present the other side's viewpoint to what has up till now been a completely Christian, Athiest, and Agnostic driven discussion: The Middle East and its reaction to the Muhammad Cartoons. My opinion on the subject is this; While the Ideals many Muslims try to live up to are good and just, their own Holy Book leaves an awful lot of room for extreme violence against mankind. Christianity and Islam both have violent histories throughout the ages, most notably during the crusades. Ultimately though, some things are in the past and should be let go. Throwing a hissy fit over seriously un-funny cartoons which arent even the first pictures of the prophet muhammad out there really isnt worth slaughtering people over. You've got to give them one thing though - no matter what your view on their ideals, they do what they say far better than any western religious sect. The Bible says not to make any graven images or to worship any idols, yet this is done by countless people when they look at a Crucifix with a little miniature "Jesus Christ" on it. The Koran says something similar, but the mindset of the Muslim people induces reaction where in the western world there would be none other than a scoff after seeing them. Either way, everyone is being way too reactive, and taking this as an opportunity to spout their dogmatic viewpoints, religious or otherwise. Lets try to get back on topic.
Nice post there MARYA, and welcome to Bit tech! You touched a very sensitive subject here, which most of us are sick and tired of hearing every day on the news, and now again in another new thread. Don't get me wrong, I admire the way you formulated your post, but I doubt the need for another Religion inspired thread on a Tech/Modders forum (maybe mods should think this over, before it all escalates here yet again, and again, and again...). I completely understand that the Muslims are hurt, I would probably be hurt too if something I carry in my heart gets ridiculed, but, that still doesn't justify their reaction to the cartoons. Like a reporter once published, the Muslim community is furious about the Cartoons, but the person who blew up a Muslim wedding a week earlier is universally excepted. (Don't quote me on this one, it's a summary made by me) If someone hurts me, that doesn't mean that I have to retaliate. I try to be the bigger (and better) person then and express my discomfort in other, peaceful ways. What the Muslim community now achieves is that the persons who are against Muslims just get more reasons to spread their word. And frankly, can you blame them (not thinking in an anti-Muslim way, but look at it through their eyes)? I'm personally not fond of Muslims, because I dislike the aggressiveness that is embedded throughout their religion. The "it's our way or no way" type of life isn't my favour. If they would get rid of, or at least minimize, the "Holy War", their belief would become more peaceful, and more universally accepted. The Christians had their crusades, but they realised that violence isn't the way of spreading their belief. I actually think there isn't a need of spreading ANY belief. If I feel the need to practice a religion, I'll go and "google" around until I find one that suits me. There's no need to force me into any particular religion. Maybe there is a need for a <ctrl> + F function in religion? Live and let live people... If someone hits you in the face, present him with your other cheek... How hard that might be.
Look, let's consider where religion came from. Anthropological evidence suggests that religion started as a shared belief system designed to: 1. provide a cognitive framework that allowed people to function in a world that was perceived as uncontrollable, frightening and confusing; 2. provide a shared reference system that allowed a tribe of disparate members to live, function and co-operate closely and converge their energy and efforts to benefit the survival of the group; 3. provide a shared reference system by which to identify in-group members (those that are worthy of altruism and co-operation because it benefits you too) and distinguish them from out-group members (those where altruism and co-operation has an uncertain return at best, and is exploited at worst). In short, people need something like religion or philosophy to function successfully. Even those who do not believe in religion, believe in something; have some principles that guide their actions, a framework of reference within which to make sense of the world, and beliefs which provide a basis for social bonding and relationship building. We all have something that guides us, drives us, reassures us, makes sense to us and identifies like-minded souls to us. You cannot ban religion. You cannot ban beliefs. It is integral to human functioning. All we can do is realise the above, realise how relative our beliefs are and be a bit more tolerant of others', and lighten up already.
Trought times in the name of religion millions have died. I don't believe in any organized religion !!! ...but i believe in God.
10 million terrorists versus 990 million pacifists...my money is on the terrorists. Way past time for the masses to grow a pair. *bites tongue*
Thank you Cthippo and Nexxo…This is what I want exactly . I thank you Glider for the reading of my article and to your comment. Sorry!! but I cant speak English very well, so I will not be able to answer any of your questions. An important note The behaviors of Muslims today, are not represent the Islam. Therefore I want to clarify for you the true image to the Islam, and the true image to the messenger. So I intend to add many of the articles about prophet Muhammad. I hope that your chest broadens therefore. Thanks to all
Didn't thumper say that... The followers of religions are generally hypocritical. People try to follow in the footsteps of Christ or Muhammad yet they kill to "protect" their faith. Muhammad walks down the street taking punishment, yet when Islam faces a dirty joke they roar with anger. If you believe in your prophet, fine...just make a concerted effort to actually FOLLOW in their footsteps. It seems like the universal goal is to be tolerant and submissive to ridicule. MARYA entered the board in this fashion, but Islam as a religion definately has not. (Obviously, ALL people are hypocritical. I just want to make it clear that religion doesn't give you innocence. Instead, it shows how imperfect you really are by giving the world a standard to judge by.) Tolerance and Humility...Tolerance and Humility.
MARYA, this article was written by Razi Mohiuddin, president of the Muslim Community Association in Santa Clara, US. Are you Razi? If not, can I ask why you claim to have written this article?
I second that - http://www.muslimnews.co.uk/news/news.php?article=10632 Just wondering still a good topic and explaination - I will use it in my AP Government class tomorrow (I'll mention it, I'm a student)
That is very disappointing --this is a discussion forum after all, and your English appears eloquent enough. I realise that initial responses were less than engaging, but several posts since are trying to discuss this issue with seriousness and sincerity. .308AR makes a valid point. The passages he quotes are what gives non-Muslim people the impression that Islam is rather fundamentalist, hostile and advocates violence against people of a different faith. I too would value your take on those. However to start a discussion thread and then state that you cannot engage in a discussion does not do your message any favours but may in fact reaffirm the impression that Muslims like to impose their point of view but are not prepared to consider other people's.
"So I intend to add many of the articles about prophet Muhammad" If you're just going to spam the board with "MARYA's Pick" of 2nd hand, pro-muslim propaganda then I hope you get hit with the banhammer sooner rather than later. Nexxo says you're not pushing one viewpoint, just trying to clear things up for us as to why Muslims are so upset by a cartoon. Fair enough, But you have made your stand on the issue very clear "I want to clarify for you the true image to the Islam, and the true image to the messenger" You're a believer, great. Lots of us arent. Thats also great. But lets not try to convert the bit-community, eh? If they are interested, they can find out for themselves. There were a lot of muslims at my uni. Despite the university's policy of "no spam" to all student inboxes, I would find, day after day, various emails telling me about the way to the prophet and the "true meaning of Islam". Then I would get a hundred more emails form other muslims detailing how it wasn't this way, it was that way, and then a hundred more saying it was another way. I made a point then and I'll make a point now. It may come as a shock to you: Mainly, nobody cares about your religion and the intricacies therein. Most people just get on with their lives as best they can, being the best person they can.
So if you don't care, why take the time to reply to the post? And perhaps I'm a nobody, but I do care about what other people believe, even if I don't agree with them. The original post shed some very relevant light on the situation and increased my understanding of it, and so I found it to be both informative and worthwhile. To badly paraphrase someone else on this board recently, If you want to ban people for posting relevant information and opinions in a civil manner, I'll be right there fighting you every step of the way.
That is a distinct possibility. We encourage discussion and everybody gets to state their point of view (no matter how unpopular), but we draw the line at one-way traffic. In this respect, as I said, I found Marya's second post precluding any further discussion rather disappointing. I await the next one in the hope that .308AR's points are addressed, because I am one of the enquiring minds that he mentions. However, Wireframe, if your position is one of "This is what I think and I don't care what you have to say" then I find it difficult to see how your attitude would be any different than that which you accuse Marya of.
Apologies, that is not my attitude, I was merely trying to account for (some) people's seeming "rejection" of organised religion or belief in general. However, the censored deleted post immediately under MARYA's first post raises questions in itself. That entirely depends on your definition of relevant. As I said: MAINLY, nobody really cares, they just want to peacefully get on with their lives being the best person they can.
Like I said... And I'm with Wireframe (and Nexxo) on this point, if you just intend to post your opinion/view, without taking part in the discussion that follows, then maybe a blog is more suitable for your needs. Yes, very true, but the second post totally changed my view. Marya claimed credit for a post, while in fact she? only copied it from someone else. That I find totally wrong, BUT, then stating that you don't speak English, makes me ask myself, what are you doing here? So I ask the mod's to keep an eye open for MARYA's next posts. If she does nothing but spread Muslim propaganda,... Well I don't have to tell the mods how to do their job. And finally Me too actually... Even tough you have absolutely nothing to say (do I hear w00t posts here?) you still have the right to express yourself. Off topic, I've been searching around for a list of Mod's, I've seen it once, but I can't remember where (or I was dreaming). Can someone PM me this, to keep the thread clean? Maybe this should be directly linked to in the FAQ section?
The post in question was flaming. "I don't care. Preach somewhere else." was not a constructive response to what was a polite post, and if atanum141 really didn't care he could simply have expressed that by not posting. Freedom of expression is one thing, but pointless flaming is another. And as tired as people are of preachers, is how tired I am of people basically saying "This is what I think and I don't care what you think". Fine, then don't engage in the discussion, because you cannot have a discussion on that premise. I doubt that Marya is Razi Mohiuddin, as he is based somewhere in Santa Clara and Marya posts from Saudi Arabia. So the first post, disappointlingly, looks like a straight copy-and-paste. Marya may therefore well turn out to be another preacher (in which case we will take out the banhammer), but until that becomes clear we like to give people the benefit of the doubt. Being the wise and tolerant openminded people that we are, and all that.
Yes, Certainly. I do not deny that!!! And because I do not master the English, I choose the article that agrees with my ideas. And I wrote it here. What is the problem of that? I wonder, Why you deal with me cruelty!!! And you attack my religious. Despite that I did not attack you!! And I did not direct to you any kind of the insult!!!!! WHY??? But I am still resolute on the transfer of the right image about my religion. Thank you.
