Discussion in 'Gaming' started by Dark6, 19 Oct 2005.
King Kong in Bluray...that sounds awesome.
With all other arguments aside, one thing we can agree on is that you won't be watching Kong Kong HD on the 360. LOL
yup..lol...nice console for the High Definition Era eh? xD
you people just will never understand.
i didnt write all that to defend xbox or anyone, divinesin asked me to explain and i did.
if im a fanboy of any company it would be sega as i play my DC almost daily to this day and again i didnt lower myself to name calling so why is it that most of you feel compelled to?
^you said that divinesin and i gave you two quotes, and that wasnt a story about tearing, it was an explanation that the developer gave behind frame rates and i gave the quotes to give merit that unlike some people, he knows what hes talking about when it comes to game development because he does it. believe me or not but im not going to get anyone fired because nothing i give would be good enough for you.
you obviously know little of in-game engines and scripted cut-scenes, so why do you say you know about them? there are countless games (shemnue, resident evils, metal gears, and final fantasies) that enhance their real-time cut scenes because they can. there are two different types of real-time cut scenes, one where there is a seamless transition to the gameplay and one where there is a pause between cut-scene and gameplay (either going to black, switching scenes, or many other methods). some games use one some use both methods of real-time cut-scenes. my point is that most real-time cut scenes are enhanced, yes using the in-game engine but still enhanced, because the developer can use more of the system's resources for the scene on your screen. there isnt any physics, AI, or any other uncontrolled variables that would tax the system. so just like a movie director, a developer can position the textures, lighting, camera, particle effects, and so on and so forth to give the veiwers the strongest visual impact. look at halo 2, shenmue, or any final fantasy game (on ps2). the character models, textures, lighting and everything else looks noticably better then what they do while your playing. there are also real-time cut scenes in shemnue where it will cut straight from the cut-scene to gameplay without cutting to a different camera or fading out, the camera will just pan right from the cut-scene to the default game camera <- those real-time cut-scenes are not as good looking as the enhanced cut scese in shemue. i bring up shemnue because its one of the few games that i know use both methods of real-time cut-scenes. all still using in-game engine but using them differently. also just like when both sega and sony were showing head models that their systems can produce, it was pointless, there wasnt anything on either system that showed that much detail in-game. its not practical from a developers standpoint, there is no point in wasting system resources making reflective eyes, stubble on the face and other details if the character is usually too far away for the player to notice.
read up and do the research, the base technology between the 7800 series and the RSX is the same, the RSX has a higher clock speeds and more shader capabilities, its a fact if you can read right. just like the xenos is in the same line of the R520 cores but the technology built on the core is entirely different and not even available for any other card, so how is that not custimized??
heavenly sword does look good, but its nothing special. again if you only knew anything about game development you would wisen up. the development process for the ps3 and 360 are worlds apart and in that respect the ps3 has an advantage. ill be more then happy to elaberate if you wish but im not going to lenthen this post any more then need be. if you think that heavenly sword game isnt possible on the 360 then your local. again, im not downplaying one system over the other, just stating that they will be more equal then you may realize.
i see where you guys are going with the whole cant play HD movies so its not a HD game system, but even if it did i wouldnt use it to watch movies. i buy a game system to play games, and if i want to watch movies i use my dedicated player for that. it give me HD games, the important thing when it comes to a GAME console, so in the end its still a HD game system. and if thats the best arguement that you guys can end up with you need a lot of help.
Oh god back to this argument again. You do realize that HD Gaming pertains to all HD media elements such as texture, audio and video. A HD Game is not as simple as Ryu and Ken shooting hadokens at each other at 1080p. True HD games requires vast amounts of disk space to hold bigger textures maps, higher res cut scenes, HD quality audio and etc. How can you say that a HD system without an HD optical medium is a true HD system? Now what are you smoking?
Crack i think...
again you guys can apply and say anything you want but the more you post the less you show you know what your talking about when it comes to game consoles.
i dont know what your talking about "this argument again" because i never said anything of the sort. however i hate to break it to you guys but im playing high-def games now on my high-def console and guess what? there isnt a blue-ray or HD-DVD drive in my system. you guys have been playing high-def games for years on your PCs and just now there are games coming out on regular DVDs. your reference to ryu and ken shooting hadokens at 1080p sounds like your talking about just upscaling, well there isnt any upscaling taking place here (except for PGR3) and it looks damn good. last gen games just barely reach around the 3gb mark so who says they need 50gb of space for games? yes its true i see them running out of space with only regular DVD-9 but it doesnt bother me what-so-ever to play a game (most likely RPG) that is 2 disks. we all did it before and never bitched so why start now? you dont hear any developers saying anything about it being a "fake" high-def system. when everything about a VIDEOGAME system is high-def except the movie play-back how is it not a high-def VIDEOGAME system? again you guys bring up the technical parts that you ACTUALLY know of between the consoles because everything else (just like high-def games) is speculation on your guy's part.
again DS you show your intelligence by nothing more then insults, very nice.
to further my point that the media format used makes little difference to how its actually displayed on screen, here is a high def game that once filled two DVDs but now it seems to only need one:http://www.onthexbox.com/index.php?view=article&article=497&cat=3
again it doesnt matter what its on, blue-ray or regular DVD, high def gaming is high def gaming.
Well like I already said 360 like the Dreamcast is a capable system, but like the Dreamcast they jumped the gun a little too soon and will eventually be left with hardware thats not truly next gen and the optical medium is just the first element to be easily spotted. Hell I was doing just fine with DC's GDROMS at 700 megs a pop but eventually it took it's tow as the RPGs just couldn't compare to Sony's Square giants that were loaded with reels of footage. What I'm basically saying is although you do not see it now because HD is still in it's infancy but as HD becomes wide spread you will find developers finding it more of a hassle to stuff 1900 res footage and 1900 res texture maps within the 9 gig medium. And as much as you say that you don't mind disk switching but honestly folks why switch disks when you don't have to and imagines lets just imagine that one day SquareEnix decides to release a new Final Final thats stacks up at 50+ gigs with HD footage galore you know how many disks that will be on your Xbox 360 thats 6 DVD9s count them 6 disks and imagine changing disks 6 times. If thats not a bitch I don't know what is.
Honestly I'm not trying to say the 360 sucks but you gotta admit that not going with a HD medium is a stupid descision that only you the fans will pay in the end.
Xenos, you also realise that games on the PC look nothing like anything that is going to be on next gen systems dont you? You also realise that while most PC games are usually small games such as first person shooters and RTS games? Games on consoles are much different and usually require much more space than is needed on a computer(Look at god of war, required a Dual Layer DVD and was a ps2 title. Imagine that same game with F.E.A.R. type graphics..yea..were probably talking about 20-30gigs of uncompressed game files here). Not to mention that you are DECOMPRESSING and installing files from a dvd instead of having uncompressed files on a console dvd, you cant install games to a console.
Not to finally mention that 1080p requires some serious disk storage to display on a television, so does 1080i, this isnt 1600x1200 were talking about, this is 1920 × 1080, larger than the normal resolution used in games. I highly doubt there will be a single game on ps3 launch thats in 3D that will require less than 9 gigs of space.
Kaze22, first of all the GD-roms were 1.2gb not 700megs and the DC died out because sega had no money not because the system was underpowered. im not going to argue with your opinion because that is your own, but i much rather not wait another year for my next gen system so that it can have a HD-drive that wont be taken advantage of for around 2-3 years. again just like how 97% of the games in the past gen failed to reach the 3gb mark, i dont see ANY company releasing a game in the next gen that comes close to filling up a blue-ray disk. other then the media drive the technology in the ps3 and 360 are of the same generation there will be little difference other then the media played on.
wow you actually make some descent points but still just because you read or hear something doesnt make it true, it was also reported that GTA:SA filled up an entire DVD-9 which it didnt (ill report how much its uses when i find it again). also i would quit bringing up 1080p in general because since you say you know as much as you do then you should know that the ps3 DOESNT have the bandwith to play games at that resolution, and if you really think that any ps3 launch title (or any title in the first 2 years in general) will really go over 9gigs, your nuts, did you forget about how the majority of ps2 launch titles still used CDs?? and i wouldnt be surprised if the majority of launch titles for the ps3 use DVD-9s either. its obvious when saying that you also dont know anything about video game budgets, there will NEVER be a publisher who will put enough money in a project to even fill up half of a blue-ray disk. also just because a game fills up so much disk space doesnt mean that it always had to, with less space, developers will have to be less sloppy with their code, compression, and material used.
again IF the media format that is being used is the only thing to be considered a "set-back" of any sort then im not worried. im happy to have my next gen system NOW and not when some stupid media format, that hollywood hasnt even chosen yet, is finalized. no matter what microsoft would have put in the system there would have been too many "what-ifs?". already in japan they have invented a media format that holds way more then either HD-DVD or blue-ray, there is no clear winner in the next gen media format war (even though blue-ray is winning), and there wont be any need for all that disk space in the next gen anyways so i dont see how microsoft made the wrong desicion.
my point still stands as fact regardless if you guys want to agree or not. the media format doesnt dictate if your playing a high def GAME on your GAME console. i dont buy GAME consoles to play high def movies so that arguement is mute in that respect. there are MANY factors to consider other then what you guys see and in the end it will all balance out anyways.
on a side note here are some words from my "friend" who is working on the ps3 as we speak believe it or not but its fact....
since these words of wisdom reflect towards the topic i hope some of you guys find interest from facts on the "inside" of the industry instead of just speculating
I'll bet you my pet monkey that the next Final Fantasy game to be released for next gen console will utilize HD media storage in spades. "I pay to play games not play long HD movies", yes thats all good but in reality no one was complaining when Final Fantasy titles started looking like long Japan Animes. Really gaming and cinema is interrelated and as technology becomes more advanced we will see that storage space is a key factor in the development of hybrid cinematic games.
We live in a world were movies and games are slowly merging you either like it or not but thats the cold hard fact.
So in the end I'll wait for the BluRay system because I know it's gonna make a difference.
And Xenos unless your names Hideo Kojima or some other respectable game designer please stop talking all that "inside of the industry jive", it's really damn annoying it's like one of those wannabe film director who like talk industry jive when the closest thing they've ever come to a set is the bonus material on their Star Wars DVD. Please if you gonna talk the talk at least walk the walk show us that your are a game maker or stop pretending to be some kind of guru.
a game and movie will always be different in the effect that you dont need to have everything on one disk. yes movies and games are fusing together in the way that they present stories, show awww inspiring effects, and the such but having a one disk rpg from square and having a 3 DVD disk game makes little difference to me and how those movies are done. there are tons of RPGs coming to the 360 already and it having a DVD-9 drive isnt stopping anyone. other then just putting uncompressed and sloppy code on a disk how can someone take advantage of HD media storage? like i said no publisher will put enough money in a game to really fill a blue-ray disk, maybe one layer but no way in the next gen to fill both duel layers. cost is already too much of an issue with next gen so why would raise the cost just for filler? for gaming purposes the only advantage of a HD media is that you will only need one disk, no biggy to me.
also i apologize for annoying you but i never claimed to be a developer. i do engage in conversations with one however, and like it or not but what i am posting is not only for anyone's interest but also because it is from the inside of the industry. i hold the highest respect for developers for many reasons, one because they are the only ones really working on the metal of these systems and would know better then any one of us in regards to these systems. im sorry that the cold hard fact of reality seems to be re-inforced with what im posting but its the truth. im not talking the talk and not walking the walk or being a wanna-be anything, im just going by facts and not speculating like so many other people. there are some things i cant get answered because this person is under NDA and there are many things he can shair. so go ahead and keep believing your PR jive news and i will continue to do research and learning from the people who are actually working on the systems because this line he says means more to me then a lot that can be said or read ->
the developers have the hardware were debating and discussing about so why not listen to them.
Xenos, i point you to one game that has already been announced on the ps3 launch, thats Unreal Tournament 2007.
Here are the system requiremens for 2004.
Operating System: Windows® 98/Me/2000/XP
Processor: Pentium® III or AMD Athlon 1.0 GHz processor or faster (1.5 GHz or faster processor recommended)
Memory: 128 MB RAM minimum (256 MB recommended)
Hard Disk Space: 5.5 GB free
Video: Any Windows-compatible video card(NVIDIA GeForce 2 or ATI Radeon with at least 64 megs of video memory recommended)Sound: Windows®-compatible sound card. NVIDIA® nForce(tm) or other motherboards/soundcards containing the Dolby® Digital Interactive Content Encoder required for Dolby Digital audio
DirectX®: DirectX® version 8.1(included)or higher
Multiplayer: Internet (TCP/IP) and LAN (TCP/IP)play supported | 33.6K baud modem or broadband Internet connection recommended
5.5gigs for a simple first person shooter that is years behind in technology. That doesnt even have single player levels. Do you think UT2007 will be anything below 10gigs when the game has textures that look almost 10x better than the previous game?
What about these 50-100 hour RPG's that have a buttload of content?
What about a game like GTA with a massive seamless world? These things cant and wont fit on a dual layer dvd.
if the disk medium is an issue then why is UT2k7 coming to the PC and 360 as well? and that 5.5gigs doesnt have any of the compression technology being used for the 360, so that comparison is pointless.
you mean RPGs like oblivion that have over 200 hours of gameplay?? or seamless world games like APB, Crackdown, and Saints Row??? so with the fact that there are already games being made for the 360, tell me again how these games cant and wont fit??
guys just understand that the media format isnt that important. if it was then why do all cross-platform games on the last gen fit just fine on the 1.5 gig disk of the gamecube?? also you should know that game code, real-time cut-scenes, and game data in general takes up very little space, the real space eater in gaming is rendered images. that is why you really only hear any concerns (which have been few honestly) about space from japanese developers because they like their rendered cut-scenes. again im sure there will be issues, but not on the scale that you guys are thinking and as long as it doesnt stop me from playing any games i care to play what issue is there really?? again regardless of opinions, no publisher will pay for a game big enough to really take advantage of HD formats it will be too expensive. as mentioned before the biggest fact i can point to is that the GC has media that is around 8 times smaller in capasity then the competitors yet you never heard any developer complaining of lack of space. same thing about the coming generation
Ok now your just talking nonsense GC games have basically no CGI only in game polygon manipulation and they suck for that matter. I've already said we are not at the stage where the raw poly pushing power of systems are strong enough to produce beautiful cut scenes to match that of prerendered CGI. And don't tell me that nobody gives a **** about beautiful CGI cut scenes because they do it's bells and whistles and people do like bells and whistles. With that said the average CGI or Video Clip in HD standard is about 30minutes/DVD 9, with any Square RPG we can easily stack up to 3xDVD9s just in cut scenes alone thats not to mention massive 1900 Resolutions texture maps and all the in game data, including HD audio. Where looking at 5XDVD9s easy with any current Square Soft RPG running at native HD resolution with HD quality CGI and HD quality textures.
Stop living in the past man, wake up I remember when CD console gaming first came out and people were like **** we can put the whole encyclopedia in here and next thing you know CGI cut scenes came to play and most RPGs were spanning multiple CDs, and then DVD consoles came in and people like you were all like dude we can put like five games on those disks and next thing you know RPGs were heading into the DVD 9 zone with movie quality cut scenes and long audio scripts to replace text, and now where at the same idiotic argument again people like you are like holyshit Blu-Ray disk 50gigs man no way we'll ever be able to use all that and next thing you know Game Textures are running at native 1900 res, with all prerendered cut scenes being displayed at 1080p and all text being replaced by HD audio and games will soon be spanning in BluRay Dual Layer.
It's really no point in even arguing with people like you everytime a new expansive data medium comes out you always got guys saying my god we're never gonna need that much storage and look whats happened everytime.
Buddy stop sticking up for Microsoft by making up stupid excuses, it's like "oh well I don't mind switching 3-5 disks in between games even when I shouldn't have to, oh I don't mind not have beautiful 1080p Cut Scenes because I don't like cut scenes anyway, I'd much rather have no cut scenes because all I care about is game play and I don't wanna watch any movies on my new HD machine because Id buy a HD player anyway". Look at how many excuses you have to make LOL.
i spoke on cross-platform games that landed on the GC. with or without rendered cut scenes the games fit just fine on the 1.5 gig disk. my point stands that there hasnt been any trouble fitting games that are pressed on DVD disks of the ps2 and xbox to fit on a 1.5 gig disk even with all the rendered cut scenes, so what does that tell you??? think before you speak.
there is much more then you realize that happens in game development. NO publisher will pay for a game to fill up a duel layer Blue-ray or HD-DVD disk, development costs are all ready the highest ever, publishers are out to make money not lose it. that explains why you will see more cross-platform games in the next gen then any previous generation (even hints of FF and dragon quest) to help make up for the rising development cost. but wait, how can cross-platform games exist in the next gen if the DVD cant handle it??
you tell me to quit defending microsoft but you guys are the ones getting offensive, acting like im attacking you or something. im not defending any company (because nintendo is using DVD as well but they arent high def) but trying to help you guys understand. you can critisize and mock me all you want but i find no need for it. i give you guys facts and you choose to ignore them. you guys enjoy picking and probing for anything you can bitch about if it doesnt have a Sony brand name on it because im sure if the 360 had a HD-DVD drive in it you would be talking about something else. you tell me its pointless to argue with people like me but you guys are the ones ignoring the facts. its a fact that the ps3 doesnt have the fill rate to handle 1080p in games, its a fact that 95% of the previous games didnt even reach over 2gigs, its a fact that no one bitched about switching between two disks on the ps1 so why do it now?, its a fact that compression technology is still advancing, its a fact that DVD-9 is still capable for use in HD gaming, its a fact that any next gen format wont be fully utilized in the next gen because of rising costs, and its a fact that other then the media played on all games will look equally gorgeous. i have never been against the advancements in media storage but it isnt needed in the next gen, its convenient to have the space to spare, but i dont mind getting up once in 80 hours of gaming to switch a disk.
i would just let it go guys, obviously you guys are getting frustrated over things you refuse to comprehend. the one greatest thing about software is that its scalable and any issues that will come up will be fixed with the right solution. yes its nice to have 25-50gigs but it will have no key advantage other then maybe disk swapping.
think about it from a business perspective, what would you do? you already committed to being the first in the market so you cant wait for something that doesnt exist yet, you dont know what the true-next gen media format will be, your trying to keep cost down so its resources can be applied to something to benefit gaming, and the only thing stopping you from putting your dreams in motion is the thought of needing a two disk game. ummm yeah regardless of who you are, microsoft, sega, nintendo, or sony i would do the same thing. it all comes to senses when you think about economics.
back to the topic, its a wash up when you talk about the 360 and ps3. they are comparable in power where one uses more brute power to acheive its results and the other is more custom built to handle gaming without the need for excessive power waste. unlike previous generations there wont be one thing one system can do that the other cant. you will have games that look better on one system other then the other but that all depends on which was ported from which. like all true gaming it will come down to the games in the end. if you like jack and dexter, warhawk, GT, killzone, DMC, and MGS buy a ps3. if you like Fable, halo, Team Ninja games, PGR, and Forza get a 360. no matter which you get you will be happy.
You do realize one of key reasons for optical jump besides simply storage purpose right? It's to prevent household piracy, games at 30 gigs is much less likely to be ripped by Joe Blow than widespread technology like DVD storage. SO FACT (lol) game developers will push for bigger games on larger storage meduim for one key reason to fight off premature piracy, as Blu_Ray ripping and duplication will not be widespread until later down it's life span thats one of primary reasons why Hollywood is making the medium switch. And stop putting FACT in front of every damn sentence when they're just your own speculations.
PS you still haven't answered my question as I said any new Final Fantasy Game at full HD with the exact same material that it has now would span into BlurRay territory, Now would you be content having to switch 5 disks when you don't have to? Simple yes or no?
Oh PS a FACT it doesn't cost anymore money for developers to stack HD quality cut scenes into the games or add HD quality texture maps, because all CGI or Progressive Scanned Video content is already digitized at uncompressed HD resolutions they are only downscaled to fit onto todays DVDs medium. Lamens term when game developers create CGI cut scenes or make in game textures they are already created at optimal resolution and are then brought down to SD quality to fit onto our curreny opitcal medium. SO FACT it won't cost Square a single penny to dump there already rendered CGI cut scenes for there new Final Fantasy games onto Blu_Ray because the contents already HD and the same goes for all game developers and film studios. So stop bsing about developers not willing to invest more on HD content, basically what you will have is on systems without HD medium they will either downscale game content or span multiple disks either way it's your loss.
how is anything in that quote not a fact? other then people not bitching about swapping disks with the ps1. i dont speculate, im not like some people in this forum. like i said do the research and you will find evidence that goes along with all of my "facts".
until now you never asked anything about a final fantasy in HD and even though it wouldnt happen i can care less about swapping DVDs. in that reference you speak about not using compression technologies so in that respect you are obviously exagerating.
my point of publishers who wont pay to fill a next gen media format has nothing to do with HD. im talking about producing a game that is so large that it will fill even half of a blue-ray disk. there will wont be a budget big enough to fill up a blue ray disk that is all, that has nothing to do with anything being HD or not, its the content that im talking about. if budget wasnt a factor then why hasnt even the DVD-9 media get filled yet?
one thing i do find amusing is that you are obviously getting flustered while im completely calm and dont result in lowering you or insulting you. and yet you are the one whos right? hmmm then it must be a lie that im playing HD games right now right? i also like how you guys move from one thing to the next in this arguement and have nothing left to argue about then the media format even when i try to get back on the topic.
Ok my point is HD medium is the future of HD gaming. They are of one of the same seed, get it.
You say how to fill a BRD with no budget, simple same game same amount of game play elements same CGI cut scenes but everything is HD. Doesn't cost a penny more in development cost.
Lets take Final Fantasy X franchise for instance.
Take say 1hour of HD cut scene 18 gigs right there, no extra development cost just use the already created HD CGI and dump it on the disk without downscaling.
Add 1900 res texture maps and HD audio and game data. another 10 gigs.
28 gigs already and I'm just talking about a game that already exists not to put into account any future development crtiterias. Thats the future of HD gaming.
Now do see my point in saying that you can't have a true HD gaming system without an HD optical medium.
Yeah sure you can play Final Fantasy HD with 4 DVD9s or you can play Nintendo's version with no cut scenes. But why? The whole point is we're talking about next gen systems here and they should'nt have to span 4 disks or require HD cut scenes to be downscaled.
I think this debate is rather pointless as some of my favourite games are old CS, smash bros. or don't take a lot of room (katamari Damacy). Anyways I think storage medium is a relatively small point. because swapping dvd's amounts to at most a minor inconvience. Any one who has played MGS, FF, RE4 etc knows that disk switch has and never will be a big issue. even when its a 4 disk game (ff7 and 8). I'm not sure about read speed rates, although they don't seem to be the slowest element in consoles anymore. Could a game fill up a Blu-ray worth of content, yes eventually one might. But I'm not holding my breath and I think it would have to be one mighty epic game as that would be a lot of content.
from what I've read and heard gaming is gonna go into 2 directions those of say GTA and FF,huge development teams, cycles etc and make long epic games, but with such a higher development cost I don't think developers are going to take as much of a risk. The other directions is of the short, but sweet variety and those that stress unique gameplay experience. Katamari Damacy, eye toy, the sims etc come to mind. I know will wright personally previewed a game in where most all of the content was created by the player. I think your trying to say that HD game = huge amount of content it could be more but its obvious that it doesn't have to be
in my personal experience as a mapper. increasing effeciency and varying gameplay mechanisms are going to gain headway against higher texture poly count etc just because of production cost development cycles etc. Some games like to claim things like "we never use the same texture twice" thats nice but it comes to the reality that in ff7 most all of the npc's were used multiple times or some deflection of a base human skeleton.
oh and saying that you need HD disk for an "hd system" is like saying an mp3 stored on a floppy is somehow less digital than one stored on a cd because of real and percieved differences in the storage media.
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