1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Wikileaks' latest leak

Discussion in 'Serious' started by tristanperry, 28 Nov 2010.

  1. Sloth

    Sloth #yolo #swag

    Joined:
    29 Nov 2006
    Posts:
    5,634
    Likes Received:
    208
    The tricky thing about classified imformation is that only those who can already view it are able to judge whether it truly deserves to stay secret.

    Consider for a moment just where this information is coming from, and who's providing it. Before getting to us this information passes by the initial person/people who leak the data. Who knows what other information this source is privy to but chooses not to share because they don't feel it should publicized? It then goes on to WikiLeaks where the staff and Assange get to further filter it depending on their idea of what should be publicized.

    What gives any of these people more right to determine it than the politicians? It's easy to ignore this thought because in every case they seem to choose "share it!", but the choice is still made. Our voracious appetite for this information has unknowingly been giving the informants and WikiLeaks staff the same power that those prejudiced, corrupt, egomaniacal, selfish, inept, ignorant and sometimes just plain dumb humans used to have, without any evidence to prove that they aren't exactly the same.

    The reason this has me so bothered is broad spectrum of classified information. I'm sure we can all agree that there is classified information that should stay secret. Things like federal employee's personal information, weapon manufacturing/handling/movement documents, and other such operational documents with no political value which threaten the well being of various people. This information is of a very different nature, but still follows very similar classification protocol. Classified Document A and Classified Document B look the same on the outside, you have to peak in to know what each is about. Once you've done that you now know things which you potentially shouldn't have for good reason.

    Many of us seem quite happy with all of this mostly political information being passed along to WikiLeaks, but I for one am not comfortable with it. I am not comfortable knowing that the informants and staff assume the right to be judge and jury on classified information simply because what has been released so far has brought up scandalous information.
     
  2. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

    Joined:
    23 Oct 2001
    Posts:
    34,542
    Likes Received:
    1,972
    I don't think so. I think they'll just stomp down harder on staff at the bottom of the hierarchy while still forgetting their executive laptops in the back of taxis.
     
  3. aradreth

    aradreth What's a Dremel?

    Joined:
    20 Aug 2009
    Posts:
    390
    Likes Received:
    61
  4. TheBlackSwordsMan

    TheBlackSwordsMan Far over the misty mountains cold

    Joined:
    16 Aug 2009
    Posts:
    4,033
    Likes Received:
    444
    Now Interpol reseach Julian for a rape case agains 2 young Sweden girls..... Are they serious ? Do they really think convince the public about that ? They want him, they don't care how. If they cut him he can be sent in an American jail for 60 years, I hope he have vasnishing skills
     
  5. nukeman8

    nukeman8 What's a Dremel?

    Joined:
    24 Jul 2008
    Posts:
    867
    Likes Received:
    17
    After visiting other forums and message boards there's a lot of hate for this person, some already convinced hes aiding terrorists and that he should be 'taken' out.

    I don't think i have come across anything that has divided people's opinions so much.

    I do think in the end America will win out and turn the masses against him, so much to the point where if he mysteriously disappears people will just smile and say good.
     
  6. stonedsurd

    stonedsurd Is a cackling Yuletide Belgian

    Joined:
    11 Mar 2009
    Posts:
    7,821
    Likes Received:
    357
  7. thehippoz

    thehippoz What's a Dremel?

    Joined:
    19 Dec 2008
    Posts:
    5,780
    Likes Received:
    174
    holding back documents- so basically they release documents that weren't meant to be seen and now control what everyone sees

    the whole thing is a joke.. documents of any country are classified for reasons- either to protect or avoid diplomatic fallouts.. who's to say he's not trashing whatever he's biased against

    the guy obviously has issues too.. I mean look at him in interviews- not exactly the man I want deciding what gets released/altered

    but I do like how irans panties are bunched yelling lies.. they don't even get it

    israel doesn't have much on them.. geez and I thought they were this nasty bunch :sigh: seems everything we thought was pretty much true from what's released- but none of this should be put out to public in the first place.. if people can't be honest in internal reports because of hacks like this- how can anyone get anything done?
     
  8. stonedsurd

    stonedsurd Is a cackling Yuletide Belgian

    Joined:
    11 Mar 2009
    Posts:
    7,821
    Likes Received:
    357
    But is it OK when the US government does exactly what Assange has done, except with an aim to hide the truth?

    What the US Government did to Valerie Plame was far, far more serious than a bunch of diplomatic cables talking about the color of Angela Merkel's undies.
     
  9. nukeman8

    nukeman8 What's a Dremel?

    Joined:
    24 Jul 2008
    Posts:
    867
    Likes Received:
    17
    Its people not being honest that's the problem in the first place.
    Apparently we all need to lie to each other for the world to work right.

    Its no wonder you can't vote for someone who isn't a lying scumbag it seems to be built in to the whole system.
     
  10. thehippoz

    thehippoz What's a Dremel?

    Joined:
    19 Dec 2008
    Posts:
    5,780
    Likes Received:
    174
    put the shoe on the other foot for a second.. all of britain's classified documents are out for the world to see- all of a sudden I'm sure everyone here would be whistling a different tune

    your talking about the scooter libby trial.. yeah bush didn't pardon him- makes me think bush wasn't really a bad guy, especially from what he's said recently.. he was easily led and fooled.. I have nothing nice to say about cheney.. his wife was in the cabinet which is the whitehouse think tank..

    not a stretch of anyone's imagination to see what happened there
     
  11. specofdust

    specofdust Banned

    Joined:
    26 Feb 2005
    Posts:
    9,571
    Likes Received:
    168
    You're missing the magnitude of this. This is not about releasing American documents, Wikileaks has released documents which are important, embarrassing, or otherwise undesirable to have leaked to certain people before (see Kenya). This is about changing humanity. Idealistic? Yes. Valuable? God yes.

    I'm not saying that I want to see classified American documents released, I'm saying I want to see all classified documents released. I want to see everything released. There are too many secrets (Nexxo). We're not talking about a small change in how government embassy staff conduct themselves here, we're talking about a global change in civilisation.

    It's not about who is judging what should be secret and what shouldn't be, it's about making nothing secret. Is this a good thing for government? Debatable. Is this a good thing for humanity? I feel yes.

    The bottom line here is that 251,000 or so documents which were secret, which were hidden away, and which were paid for, essentially, by people who didn't have permission to even read them, are now available to all to read and digest.

    As I said before, information is power, empower everybody and the world will improve.

    Fake-edit: As for the rape charges, having read the police reports and just about every other piece of info available on this, the charges are very obviously a pile of bull. They show that Assange may not be the nicest guy to conduct a physical relationship with, he might just sleep with some other chick the night after he sleeps with you, but that's all there is to it. All he is guilty of is sleeping with one woman, then a different one the next day, then the first woman again the next night. That's not rape, it's being promiscuous. While it is concerning that Assange hasn't actually gone for interviews with the swedish prosecutors, he has offered to go to the Swedish embassy in London and be interviewed there, he has offered to conduct interviews over video-link, and since he hasn't actually been charged with any crime (he's only officially wanted for questioning) it's very questionable whether any interpol warrent is actually legitimate under the law - the attempted EU warrent basically can't exist because he hasn't been charged with a crime.
     
    Cthippo likes this.
  12. stonedsurd

    stonedsurd Is a cackling Yuletide Belgian

    Joined:
    11 Mar 2009
    Posts:
    7,821
    Likes Received:
    357
    ??

    Why? Do we all like Britain more? You should have seen the thread on the Ark Royal's scrapping - I don't think anyone had a kind word to say about the British government :p

    PS: I can't take sides because I'm neither British nor American. I'm Indian. We don't have any secrets worth keeping :hehe:
     
  13. TheBlackSwordsMan

    TheBlackSwordsMan Far over the misty mountains cold

    Joined:
    16 Aug 2009
    Posts:
    4,033
    Likes Received:
    444
    He didnt leak some defense plans or real ID of secrets spy. Only some crap like 'Russian politic is gone' or 'Berlus..... is an unproductive shame' also 'Canadian Politicians feel inferior in face of American ones' ^^ It can't help any terrorist, only irritate some unproductive and sloppy politicians. That's my opinions only

     
  14. Sloth

    Sloth #yolo #swag

    Joined:
    29 Nov 2006
    Posts:
    5,634
    Likes Received:
    208
    This is exactly what my post above was talking about. People get so worked up about how terrible the government is that they don't stop to think about what they're actually saying.

    The personal information of civil servants (birth dates, social security numbers, places of residence, etc) are all classified documents. Military operational guidance which specifically states the movement orders of troops are classified documents. Schematics of nuclear submarines are classified documents.

    You want every federal employee to have their identity stolen, every soldier ambushed and everyone with an internet connection learning nuclear secrets? That's almost Darwin Award worthy.
     
  15. st1x

    st1x Surviving on low specs since '86

    Joined:
    24 Apr 2010
    Posts:
    65
    Likes Received:
    2
    Of course it is......America loves their double standards, take Bhopal for example.....and they have the audacity to bitch at the English? BP accidentaly killed 15, Bhopal killed 16,000+ and injured over half a million, and then they got caught trying to blackmail the Indian Gov'ment.

    Does your average Joe in america know or even heard about Bhopal? Probably not, and thats just the way they like it.

    Information is power and america sees the loss of their information to Wikileaks as a loss of power.

    Nic
     
    Landy_Ed likes this.
  16. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

    Joined:
    23 Oct 2001
    Posts:
    34,542
    Likes Received:
    1,972
    To get back to your first question (which I missed while replying to another post --sorry): why is whistleblowers and Wikileaks making decisions about whether information should be revealed different from politicians deciding to do so? Conflict of interest, is why. Politicians have a very real personal interest in what gets revealed or not. Whistleblowers and Wikileaks do not --quite the contrary; it potentially makes their lives a lot more complicated. Arguably they are more objective.

    Secondly, we have to make a distinction between personal data and public data. Details of identity, social security numbers and the like are personal. There is no reason why the public should know. Details about government expenses, political decisions and manoeverings etc. concern the public. They concern tax payers' money and the actions of politicians representing us and acting in our name.

    It does not concern the public exactly when and how troops strategically defend Helmand province. It does concern the public whether they torture or kill civilians in the process, why the givernment decided they should be there in the first place and how much that little party is going to cost in lives and money.

    As the government likes to say: if you've got nothing to hide you've got nothing to worry about.
     
  17. BRAWL

    BRAWL Dead and buried.

    Joined:
    16 Aug 2010
    Posts:
    2,667
    Likes Received:
    185
    Knowledge is power, Hide it well.
     
  18. sotu1

    sotu1 Ex-Modder

    Joined:
    24 Aug 2007
    Posts:
    2,883
    Likes Received:
    26
    Damn it, beat me to it :)
     
  19. BRAWL

    BRAWL Dead and buried.

    Joined:
    16 Aug 2010
    Posts:
    2,667
    Likes Received:
    185
    You are but an instrument of His will.

    ... Space Marines are glorious with way to many saying that have real life applications.
     
  20. Sloth

    Sloth #yolo #swag

    Joined:
    29 Nov 2006
    Posts:
    5,634
    Likes Received:
    208
    With information as potentially powerful as what we're seeing it's hard not to have any interest in what's released. It may not be a personal interest involving career advancement and inter-governmental backscratching, but the power to shape world happenings depending on what you release is something which can sway anyone to start forgetting what the world might need at the time and start thinking what they want the world to be. I'd also be a little worried about having those who are diametrically opposed to current practices being whistleblowers, but then again it's hard to ever find a truly nuetral party.

    For making a distinction, I 100% agree with that. But it goes back to the inherently secret nature of classified documents. Classify it at a higher level which the people you want can't see to hide it from them and lie about its contents. Falsely classify it as personal or mission critical information and keep it tucked safely away. With the current system of classification all I can see these leaks doing is making diplomats tighten up on their secrets while opening the door for potentially damaging (as in directly damaging to people's wellbeings, not just politics) leaks all in the name of open government.

    As a safer way of promoting open government, I'd like to point out the Freedom of Information Act. Going before the Supreme Court this year is a case regarding a FOIA request. The plaintiff feels endangered by munitions storage at a nearby base and made several FOIA requests regarding information on contents and explosive potential of the material. After being rejected due to Exemption 2 of the act, he took the matter to court arguing that the exemption does not apply and that it is being used to unlawfully hide information (which could be possible, which is why I mention false classification above). The act is quite powerful and, should you feel that it isn't powerful enough, you can take it to court as is being shown!
     

Share This Page